Author Topic: Subsidized housing paradox.  (Read 943 times)

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 06:41:07 PM »
2-4-D is a "great natural occurence"  :D

Yep, just like round-up and my neighbors grass. shhh
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Offline Stalwart

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 07:26:38 PM »
ONe thing i  can add about this. i live in lindenwold nj. small town, used to be really nice, although never a rich town.
 i'm in the "garden lake" section. that is about the last holdout in the town. the rest went to hell. why? thanks to apartments. some of them are subsidized, some aren't. either way, they're what's drug this town through the years.

 now here's the kicker. i pay $5300(ballpark) a year in property taxes. my house is over 100 years old. looks like it was built by drunken monkeys on crack. it's 2 bedroom, 1 bath, small living room, small kitchen. no dining room, no tv room or anything like that.
 property's 120' across the front, and 140' front to back. i added a 2 car garage, seperate from the house about 13 or so years ago.

 neighboring cherry hill(where my shop is), the average house is less then 50 years old. usually 3-4 bedrooms, kitchen dining room, tv room. some are 2 story, some split level. most have finished basements.
 propertys are a little smaller though. usually only around 100x100. most of them have attached 2 car garages.

 they average $6500 or so a year in property taxes. newer homes, better school system, better police and fire depts, better roads, and for all intents and purposes, the same tax rates.
 what kind of bs is that?

 i did have a lawyer friend tell me that in towns with a lot of apts. the property tax goes up for homeowners.....but still...........

VOTE WITH YOUR FEET...   Move to Texas.  No state income tax.   Reasonable property and sales tax most places.  Reasonable rent many many places.  Austin is a bit expensive, but it IS the political capital, so you know the types it draws.



Offline CAP1

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2009, 08:51:19 PM »
VOTE WITH YOUR FEET...   Move to Texas.  No state income tax.   Reasonable property and sales tax most places.  Reasonable rent many many places.  Austin is a bit expensive, but it IS the political capital, so you know the types it draws.




i'm kinda stuck here for at least 3 more years. that's the duration of the lease on my shop. if i can make it kick ass, and sell it for a great profit, i was definitly planning on moving out of jersey.
 not that i don't care about my customers......but rather that jersey sucks.
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Offline LYNX

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 06:27:21 AM »
I guess its a paradox of sorts..
SNIP
So They (state I guess, whoever)  want to be able to give people who do not or cannot make much money, a chance to live somewhere other than in a run down shack in a squalid ghetto.  So they build relatively nice homes, and offer them at either a drastically lower cost than they would normally be priced at, OR price them based on a % of the occupants income..

My theory on this phenomenon is basically that people never appreciate or take care of something they are given, because they didn't earn it...

any other theories?


In the UK we have council housing.  Property owned by and subsidised by the town.  Low rent and a right to buy after so many years of renting. 

It's my observation that it's the people that are drawn into these areas.  Usually poorly educated or just plain stupid.  Underskilled as a result of their mental capacity hence poorly paid low earners.  Couple some of this with large families and the income is soon used up.

I have lived in one such council estate and I have to say the vast majority are stand up folk.  Just families trying to get by on what meager income they have.  Unfortunately its the bad apples. Criminals, drug / alcohol addicts, single parents and parents who can't control their kids.  Some of these folk are on a cycle of abuse.  Here's a typical example of 1 such family that lived across the road.  Numerous accounts of demostic violence. 2 occasions where the father was beaten up by some heavies. Father eventually put gaol for burglary. Single mum turned into part time "lady".  I remember one day her coming to the door and she shouts to her 6 year old boy, playing in the street.  "Come here you little B*****, your F****** dinners going cold".....in the street man! 

That kid is probably nearer 20 now and with that type of upbringing he's going to be just the same as his parents now.         

The city council is trying a new tactic with these types of families.  The council have purchased house in residential suburbs.  The hope being that "normal" families will instill in these dysfunctionals a proper way of living.  Guess what?  It don't work.  The once quiet residentail street is now witness to domestic violence, broken windows and so on.  Incidents of crime rising in said areas ...guess who  :rolleyes: Police arresting the kids and so on. 

It's the people mate and I would rather they be kept in 1 area well out the way.  Those that can or want to achieve more will.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 07:57:06 AM »
In the UK we have council housing.  Property owned by and subsidised by the town.  Low rent and a right to buy after so many years of renting. 

It's my observation that it's the people that are drawn into these areas.  Usually poorly educated or just plain stupid.  Underskilled as a result of their mental capacity hence poorly paid low earners.  Couple some of this with large families and the income is soon used up.

I have lived in one such council estate and I have to say the vast majority are stand up folk.  Just families trying to get by on what meager income they have.  Unfortunately its the bad apples. Criminals, drug / alcohol addicts, single parents and parents who can't control their kids.  Some of these folk are on a cycle of abuse.  Here's a typical example of 1 such family that lived across the road.  Numerous accounts of demostic violence. 2 occasions where the father was beaten up by some heavies. Father eventually put gaol for burglary. Single mum turned into part time "lady".  I remember one day her coming to the door and she shouts to her 6 year old boy, playing in the street.  "Come here you little B*****, your F****** dinners going cold".....in the street man! 

That kid is probably nearer 20 now and with that type of upbringing he's going to be just the same as his parents now.         

The city council is trying a new tactic with these types of families.  The council have purchased house in residential suburbs.  The hope being that "normal" families will instill in these dysfunctionals a proper way of living.  Guess what?  It don't work.  The once quiet residentail street is now witness to domestic violence, broken windows and so on.  Incidents of crime rising in said areas ...guess who  :rolleyes: Police arresting the kids and so on. 

It's the people mate and I would rather they be kept in 1 area well out the way.  Those that can or want to achieve more will.

just from personal experience here.
within 5 miles of my home, there's at least 1/2 dozen apartment complexes like this. without exception, each and every one of them is nothing but scum. if there was any decent families in any of them, i never met them. and i would have, having used to deliver newspapers in the am, and pizzas in the pm.
 most of these apartments, we wouldn't send a driver in ther solo. always had someone ride shotgun into those places.
 even so, had at least 3 drivers robbed.

 those that read these......that've heard of camden nj? well.....these apartment complexes are just like little "mini" camdens.

 when i go to south street in philly, i drive down 5th street from washington blvd. right on the corner there, is a subsidized apartment complex.
 the ONLY time i don't see guys standing outside on 5th, is when there's police around. other than that, there's lookouts on the sidewalk, and the dealers are nearby. even on 20 degree days these clowns are out there.

 if these people really wanted to help themselves, they'd be out looking for work, not doing this crap, and messing up the very buildings they live in.
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Offline Wingnutt

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 09:07:50 AM »
I think its starting to be come part of "the way"  not the American way or UK way, just people in general..   Used to be Success was what was strived for and having to be "assisted" in life was a source of great shame and to be avoided at all costs.  Now people instead find ways to game the system and make it a point to try and stay on goverment assistance.

I think there should LESS "help" for these people.

Free market society, freedom to succeed, freedom to fail..  Failure breeds invention and progress, if people arent allowed to fail, they will never move forward...  its sucks, but desperation is hell of a motivator.


Offline ink

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2009, 10:42:24 AM »
I think its starting to be come part of "the way"  not the American way or UK way, just people in general..   Used to be Success was what was strived for and having to be "assisted" in life was a source of great shame and to be avoided at all costs.  Now people instead find ways to game the system and make it a point to try and stay on goverment assistance.

I think there should LESS "help" for these people.

Free market society, freedom to succeed, freedom to fail..  Failure breeds invention and progress, if people arent allowed to fail, they will never move forward...  its sucks, but desperation is hell of a motivator.




 I agree with this :aok

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2009, 10:58:37 AM »
It isn't just the subsidized housing.  A few years ago, I was working as a photojournalist.  I was assigned to a reporter who was doind a huge multi page story about Habitat for Humanity homes in the area and how they supposedly were helping ot get people on their feet by giving them a new home that they could never afford on their own etc etc etc.

Problem was...  As we toured around several of the homes, they were so run down and trashed by the people benefitting from the charity of others that we couldn't find any places to takes photos for the article that didn't make the Habitat for Humanity program look like a big waste.

The article was canceled because the editors weren't going to get the light and fluffy, "Look how people are helping the poor folks" story that they wanted.  The editor rejected the expose that the reporter and I pitched after our tour, because we weren't going to put a positive spin on the whole thing.

I learned two things from the experience...

1)  A large segment of the lower class population in this country has no real desire to improve their lives.  They will take and take from the system and the charity of others with no real appreciation or motivation to make the best of their situation.

2)  The news media, and I mean ALL news media, is absolutely corrupted by their own agendas.  Only a fool takes ANYTHING put by the news media at face value.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2009, 12:02:26 PM »
It isn't just the subsidized housing.  A few years ago, I was working as a photojournalist.  I was assigned to a reporter who was doind a huge multi page story about Habitat for Humanity homes in the area and how they supposedly were helping ot get people on their feet by giving them a new home that they could never afford on their own etc etc etc.

Problem was...  As we toured around several of the homes, they were so run down and trashed by the people benefitting from the charity of others that we couldn't find any places to takes photos for the article that didn't make the Habitat for Humanity program look like a big waste.

The article was canceled because the editors weren't going to get the light and fluffy, "Look how people are helping the poor folks" story that they wanted.  The editor rejected the expose that the reporter and I pitched after our tour, because we weren't going to put a positive spin on the whole thing.

I learned two things from the experience...

1)  A large segment of the lower class population in this country has no real desire to improve their lives.  They will take and take from the system and the charity of others with no real appreciation or motivation to make the best of their situation.

2)  The news media, and I mean ALL news media, is absolutely corrupted by their own agendas.  Only a fool takes ANYTHING put by the news media at face value.

THey did one of those homes right here in camden nj. i think it was a hispanic family from camden got it.

 they not only trashed the house, but only made it a year or 2 before they got forclosed on, as they were still responsible for the mortgage.
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2009, 12:48:10 PM »
I would say a majority of these people are stuck in negative economic and social cycles.  Throwing money at the problem isn't the solution.  Just like the OP said, people who are given something without earning it don't treat it as well.  Think of some spoiled rich kid with a new car, they are a lot more likely to treat that thing like crap.  That's why I see benefits in programs like Big Brothers Big Sisters and Boys and Girls Club.  These organizations don't rely on giving money but rather giving support to these kids.  You can't fix the root of the problem overnight by covering it up with pretty things. 

Housing, drugs, and all those other problems are symptoms of the underlying problem.
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2009, 10:26:17 AM »


 now here's the kicker. i pay $5300(ballpark) a year in property taxes.

Many states especially the ones with no state income tax have very high property taxes. I don't think the garden state is one of them. In California we have a thing called prop 13. That enables the current prop taxes to only go up 1 % of the current value each year. That being said they are finding other ways to raise the prop taxes. Now if you sell your home and by another I believe you can take a one time exchange.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2009, 10:34:49 AM »
Many states especially the ones with no state income tax have very high property taxes. I don't think the garden state is one of them. In California we have a thing called prop 13. That enables the current prop taxes to only go up 1 % of the current value each year. That being said they are finding other ways to raise the prop taxes. Now if you sell your home and by another I believe you can take a one time exchange.

nj state sales tax is 7%.

when i sell tires, i obviously have to charge that 7%. here's the kicker. they instituted a nj state tire tax a few years ago. $1.50 per tire. so i have to charge tax on tires twice.
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2009, 10:46:54 AM »
nj state sales tax is 7%.

when i sell tires, i obviously have to charge that 7%. here's the kicker. they instituted a nj state tire tax a few years ago. $1.50 per tire. so i have to charge tax on tires twice.

we have a tire tax as well, don't know what it is but remember paying for it. At least your state didn't take a 10% mandatory loan from you that wont be paid back. You have to deduct it from your taxes instead. Now last time I checked there was a penalty and interest  on any underpaid amount. Do you think I am getting interest? HELL NO! The double standards of this country to it's people is getting ridiculous. I hear that the new cap and trade bill will have housing inspection and requirements to sell your home. Some as stupid as window strength.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 10:56:03 AM »
Make your own bed and lie in it.


Anyone on handouts should be under the control and supervision of whomever gave out the handouts. Obviously they cvould not do it on their own. They should have duties and work requirements for the handouts.

Otherwise let nature take its course.

I feel the same way about anyone that has kids. They should be taking care of them not me.
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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Subsidized housing paradox.
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 11:15:07 AM »
nj state sales tax is 7%.

when i sell tires, i obviously have to charge that 7%. here's the kicker. they instituted a nj state tire tax a few years ago. $1.50 per tire. so i have to charge tax on tires twice.

They call the extra tax a "Disposal" fee for getting rid of the old tires here in Illinois...  I believe you have to pay it even if you want to keep your old tires...  So much for the disposal thing...

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