Flap usage during maneuvering

[ares473]

I have been doing some online practice with using flaps during maneuvering. Only once did I succeed in causing an overshoot but that was not my intent. The question I have for the seasoned pilots out there is how do you use your flaps effectively? The game doesn't let you drop flaps until your speed is down usualy below 150mph and then there seems to be serious buffeting. Any tips?

[CAP1]

I have been doing some online practice with using flaps during maneuvering. Only once did I succeed in causing an overshoot but that was not my intent. The question I have for the seasoned pilots out there is how do you use your flaps effectively? The game doesn't let you drop flaps until your speed is down usualy below 150mph and then there seems to be serious buffeting. Any tips?

some aircraft don't need flaps during normal combat maneuvering. some do.

p51, and p38 are 2 that can use their maneuvering flaps at 250. i think the pony can use them at a tick over 400, but as i don't fly the pony, i'm not sure.

 mainly, i use my flaps initially in a turn. once i start using them, i'm deplying and retracting them almost constantly during a fight.
 you have to be careful, as if you put too much out, you'll lose all benifit, and do nothing more than create extra drag, which is bad.

[Qrsu]

I have been doing some online practice with using flaps during maneuvering. Only once did I succeed in causing an overshoot but that was not my intent. The question I have for the seasoned pilots out there is how do you use your flaps effectively? The game doesn't let you drop flaps until your speed is down usualy below 150mph and then there seems to be serious buffeting. Any tips?

Flaps do a couple of things:

Positives:

- Extra Lift (Tighter turn RADIUS)
- Induce Drag (Decreases your speed - this is only a positive if you WANT to lose speed)
- Stability at low speeds (For the most part)

Negatives:

- Induce Drag (Decreases your speed, reduced turn RATE)


If you know how to use them properly, there are a lot of positives. However, you have to be wary of the consequences - IE if you are engaged in a turn fight, try to keep the flaps up in a nose-to-tail turn otherwise your turn rate suffers. Turn rate is what will get you around the circle quicker.

If you end up turning nose to nose with someone, a tighter radius is what you want to aim for (most of the time) and thus, extra lift generated by dropping flaps helps. I would however, bring them back up as soon as you want to regain speed.

I tend to use them at the top of vertical maneuvers (to drop my nose quicker) and to force overshoots. Though the less you use them - the better your E state will be. Always try to wary of how much you're giving up with regards to E while benefiting from a tighter turn.

Once you think about how you plan on using flaps and you practice it often you will tend to KNOW when to drop and retract them.

[mechanic]

this is the thread you may want to look at


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,271266.0.html

[2ADoc]

In general, and commercial aviation flaps are to increase the rate of decent, without an increase of airspeed.  In combat avaition they are used to tighten turns, increase rates of climb, induce overshoots.  The Corsair is a great examle of it, without flaps it is a good turner, with them it will turn with just about anything in the air.  You can use the flaps at 250 in a hog, and you can blow the gear at over 300, and slow it down by 30 mph to get it into your flap range, and then crank it around, get the Zeek that is on your butt, and put rounds on it.  Coming into the carrier, get full flaps out and hold 110 and get it down, turn final and fly it to the deck at 90mph, flair catch a 1 wire and get back into the fray,without having to back up to the end of the deck so you can get that Heavy hog in the air. 

[FLS]

I have been doing some online practice with using flaps during maneuvering. Only once did I succeed in causing an overshoot but that was not my intent. The question I have for the seasoned pilots out there is how do you use your flaps effectively? The game doesn't let you drop flaps until your speed is down usualy below 150mph and then there seems to be serious buffeting. Any tips?

The short answer is that flaps reduce your stall speed. This lets you turn tighter and/or slower.

The onset of the stall horn is your best sustained turn rate. The onset of buffet is your minimum turn radius.

Because of the added drag you don't want your flaps out more than needed.

[CAP1]

The short answer is that flaps reduce your stall speed. This lets you turn tighter and/or slower.

The onset of the stall horn is your best sustained turn rate. The onset of buffet is your minimum turn radius.

Because of the added drag you don't want your flaps out more than needed.

I SPENd soooooo much time riding thatr dam stall horn, i turned the volume down on it. i ride the buffet a lot too......

[Agent360]

The question is realy plane dependant. So one would ask "how do is use flaps effectivly in X type of plane".

"Combat flaps" as the term is used mean that some planes can deploy one notch at high speed (over 250). The P51 and F4u are two planes that have combat flaps. They are very useful in decreasing your turn radius at a HIGH speed. Normally above your NON flaped turn radius. However in planes that should be flown fast for best performance the continued use of the flaps will kill your energy.

In "Stall fighting" - When one begins to fly at near stall speed and maneuvers in scissors for an over shoot or to remain stable to stay behind the bandit then flaps become useful in ANY plane.

Some planes such as the 109K4 have a very powerful engine and can fly at nearly 200 mph (true airspeed) with all notches out. Basically using pure horse power to overcome the induced drag from the flaps. This is useful in controlling the plane in verticle stalling moves.

In the A6m2 flaps can actually increase your turn radius and totally burn your energy. The zero actually turns better without them. However there are times when you can use them effectively (in verticle stalling for example)

Flaps are also useful when taking a plane verticle to stall into a hammerhead type of move. Using the flaps with the nose up at near zero airspeed can induce a more effective roll over. Once the plane noses over they can also allow you to control the nose by floating it around.

Flaps can also be deployed purposly in slow speed diving spirals to make the plane stay flat or MORE nose up than the bandit behind you causing a slow speed over shoot.

I have found that flaps work the best just below the speed at which you can deploy them. With practice one can maneuver in such a way as to keep the nose up or down using elevator and deploying flaps in or out and keeping your speed so that you can gain or loose energy as needed but still be in position to gain energy if you need more.

Once you get to pure stall speeds energy becomes most important. The use of flaps at this time can surprise your enemy. One can make very tight barrel rolls or even stall out nose up quickly.

[bozon]

In general, and commercial aviation flaps are to increase the rate of decent, without an increase of airspeed.  In combat avaition they are used to tighten turns, increase rates of climb, induce overshoots.  The Corsair is a great examle of it, without flaps it is a good turner, with them it will turn with just about anything in the air.  You can use the flaps at 250 in a hog, and you can blow the gear at over 300, and slow it down by 30 mph to get it into your flap range, and then crank it around, get the Zeek that is on your butt, and put rounds on it. 

There are a few misconceptions here.
First, flaps do not increase your rate of climb, they reduce it. At first this is counter intuitive because "flaps increase lift", but they also increase drag and the overall efficiency of the wing is lower (less lift per drag). It is more correct to think about their effect as increasing the potential maximum lift of the wing. Since in a sustained climb the wing is not producing maximum lift (max angle of attack, the edge of stall) you pay for the extra drag and gain nothing in lift. In other words, if given lift can be attained without flaps by increasing the angle of attack, it is more efficient than producing the same lift with flaps out. They help in carrier takeoffs because they allow reaching sustained flight at a lower speed (potential lift...), but once the speed is high enough not to stall without them, the climb will be better with them retracted.

The other misconception is that they increase turn rate. Again this is wrong in almost all cases except perhaps for a very small speeds range that is not sustained. What they do is reduce your turning radius. At high speed where you are limited by blackout, this is because they slow you down. At very low speeds they allow you to fly even slower (increase of maximum potential lift...) before stalling out - at the cost of turn rate. Corsair will never turn more degrees per second than a zeke, unless the speed is high enough to lock the elevator of the zeke.

Many people confuse turn rate with turn radius. The effect of the latter is deceiving from the pilot's point of view and can sometimes make you feel as if you gain more angles than your opponent, when in practice you turn less degrees than him, but he is simply flying into your guns because you two are not flying on the same circle. Dogfighting planes rarely fly on the same circle.

[CAP1]

There are a few misconceptions here.
First, flaps do not increase your rate of climb, they reduce it. At first this is counter intuitive because "flaps increase lift", but they also increase drag and the overall efficiency of the wing is lower (less lift per drag). It is more correct to think about their effect as increasing the potential maximum lift of the wing. Since in a sustained climb the wing is not producing maximum lift (max angle of attack, the edge of stall) you pay for the extra drag and gain nothing in lift. In other words, if given lift can be attained without flaps by increasing the angle of attack, it is more efficient than producing the same lift with flaps out. They help in carrier takeoffs because they allow reaching sustained flight at a lower speed (potential lift...), but once the speed is high enough not to stall without them, the climb will be better with them retracted.

The other misconception is that they increase turn rate. Again this is wrong in almost all cases except perhaps for a very small speeds range that is not sustained. What they do is reduce your turning radius. At high speed where you are limited by blackout, this is because they slow you down. At very low speeds they allow you to fly even slower (increase of maximum potential lift...) before stalling out - at the cost of turn rate. Corsair will never turn more degrees per second than a zeke, unless the speed is high enough to lock the elevator of the zeke.

Many people confuse turn rate with turn radius. The effect of the latter is deceiving from the pilot's point of view and can sometimes make you feel as if you gain more angles than your opponent, when in practice you turn less degrees than him, but he is simply flying into your guns because you two are not flying on the same circle. Dogfighting planes rarely fly on the same circle.

if i recall, the first 20 degrees add lift only. past that, they add drag.

[PFactorDave]

if i recall, the first 20 degrees add lift only. past that, they add drag.

I don't think it is possible to inrease lift without increasing induced drag also.

[CAP1]

I don't think it is possible to inrease lift without increasing induced drag also.

i should rephrase that......2 lines rang as i was typing it.

 to 20 degrees, you gain more lift than you induce drag. past 20 degrees, you induce more drag, than you increase lift.

 i think.

[BnZs]

In some planes a notch or two increases sustained rate, right?

There are a few misconceptions here.
First, flaps do not increase your rate of climb, they reduce it. At first this is counter intuitive because "flaps increase lift", but they also increase drag and the overall efficiency of the wing is lower (less lift per drag). It is more correct to think about their effect as increasing the potential maximum lift of the wing. Since in a sustained climb the wing is not producing maximum lift (max angle of attack, the edge of stall) you pay for the extra drag and gain nothing in lift. In other words, if given lift can be attained without flaps by increasing the angle of attack, it is more efficient than producing the same lift with flaps out. They help in carrier takeoffs because they allow reaching sustained flight at a lower speed (potential lift...), but once the speed is high enough not to stall without them, the climb will be better with them retracted.

The other misconception is that they increase turn rate. Again this is wrong in almost all cases except perhaps for a very small speeds range that is not sustained. What they do is reduce your turning radius. At high speed where you are limited by blackout, this is because they slow you down. At very low speeds they allow you to fly even slower (increase of maximum potential lift...) before stalling out - at the cost of turn rate. Corsair will never turn more degrees per second than a zeke, unless the speed is high enough to lock the elevator of the zeke.

Many people confuse turn rate with turn radius. The effect of the latter is deceiving from the pilot's point of view and can sometimes make you feel as if you gain more angles than your opponent, when in practice you turn less degrees than him, but he is simply flying into your guns because you two are not flying on the same circle. Dogfighting planes rarely fly on the same circle.

[CAP1]

In some planes a notch or two increases sustained rate, right?

i think instantaneous turn, not sustained.....

[FLS]

In some planes a notch or two increases sustained rate, right?

It may increase the rate but, as Agent360 already mentioned, it depends on the aircraft.
Read the thread Mechanic posted a link to for more info.