109 flight model

[dcannon1]

I recently received a "Bits and Pieces" newsletter from EAA Canada. As follows:
 
"Test Pilot Rod Erdos gives us a personal tour of the only flying "Emil" Messerschmitt Bf-109E in the world in an article he wrote for Vintage Wings of Canada  "BOUNCING CLOUDS" FLYING A RARE BF-109.".

http://vintagewings.ca/page?a=1261&lang=en-CAtoolbar:new_tab.html

I would highly recommend every flier in AH and especially to HTC's flight model programmers cut/paste the link to read the article.

Personally i think every aircraft should be modelled as closely to the actual flight characteristics as possible! Currently every aircraft uses the same model with very minor changes (that keep changing) to airspeed, coefficient of lift, power and drag making it a "game" to find the current advantage given plane set.   I say make them as real as possible (using actual posted documentation) and let the players sort out the advantages using skill... isn't that why we have different era arenas?


 

[curry1]

repost?

[Krusty]

Personally i think every aircraft should be modelled as closely to the actual flight characteristics as possible! Currently every aircraft uses the same model with very minor changes (that keep changing) to airspeed, coefficient of lift, power and drag making it a "game" to find the current advantage given plane set.

I think you're mixing up AH and IL2. IL2 has every plane with the same identical flight model but different speeds.

AH has given most of its aircraft a distinctive "feel" and handling when you fly them. Fly a 190 like a spit and you'll dip a wing and spin out. Fly a spit like a pony and all of a sudden you'll be locking your contols due to compressiong. The low speed handling of the 109s are night and day as compared to the low speed handling of the C2s.

While I agree that HTC should try as much as possible to model aircraft accurately, I had to disagree with your comment above.

That out of the way, specifically it might generate more discussion if you pointed out WHICH areas of the 109E flight model you were saying needed to be revise.

I know the flaps are too fast. I know the P-40E flaps are way too slow (in real life they pop from up to full down in 1.5 seconds). I know the F4us have way too little torque and adverse handling effects. I know the P-51s lack their unstable departures and widowmaker spins that they had in real life (and no, not talking about just with aux tank filled).

So there are a lot of areas they need to work on -- hopefully they have a "to do" list somewhere -- but just pasting a link and saying "make it like this!" isn't always the best way to bring about change.


P.S. To further discussion, I will be forced to point out that the article is about flying a restored replica. I doubt it has real guns (those are probably empty pipes for barrels) nor ammunition, thus being many hundreds of pounds lighter than a war-time 109E would be. Have to consider that SOME things won't be historically correct, but then again others will (i.e. slat popping behavior, to name one example).

[Karnak]

Restored aircraft lack armor, guns and other equipment that the wartime aircraft had.  They don't make for good performance sources.

I'll also echo Krusty and say that you seem to have AH confused with IL-2.

[SIK1]

Restored aircraft lack armor, guns and other equipment that the wartime aircraft had.  They don't make for good performance sources.

I'll also echo Krusty and say that you seem to have AH confused with IL-2.

Yes, it would be like comparing a street car to a race car.

I'll third the confusion part as well.

[Ack-Ack]

What part of the Bf 109's flight model is the OP suggesting is incorrect?


ack-ack

[Krusty]

What part of the Bf 109's flight model is the OP suggesting is incorrect?

That's what I was curious about, as well. Would be nicer if he'd explain his thinking.

[Bodhi]

Restored aircraft lack armor, guns and other equipment that the wartime aircraft had.  They don't make for good performance sources.

I'll also echo Krusty and say that you seem to have AH confused with IL-2.

Please tell me why you would state this.  As most know, I am in the restoration business and have been for almost twenty years.  For the past ten, all we have been doing are building to exact specifications from the war, including all armor, guns, sights, equipment, and materials.  It is considered a better restoration and in reality, is the only way it should be done.

Please try and think so as not to insult the warbird restoration community by making a blanket uneducated statement like that.

[Bronk]

Please tell me why you would state this.  As most know, I am in the restoration business and have been for almost twenty years.  For the past ten, all we have been doing are building to exact specifications from the war, including all armor, guns, sights, equipment, and materials.  It is considered a better restoration and in reality, is the only way it should be done.

Please try and think so as not to insult the warbird restoration community by making a blanket uneducated statement like that.

Lemme know when ya need a painter... Awlgrip... alexseal... Dupont.  Mostly on fiberglass but still quite a bit of metal work.

[AWwrgwy]

Please tell me why you would state this.  As most know, I am in the restoration business and have been for almost twenty years.  For the past ten, all we have been doing are building to exact specifications from the war, including all armor, guns, sights, equipment, and materials.  It is considered a better restoration and in reality, is the only way it should be done.

Please try and think so as not to insult the warbird restoration community by making a blanket uneducated statement like that.

I've heard they leave the turbo-supercharger out of restored P-47s?  Any truth to this?


wrongway

[BrownBaron]

What part of the Bf 109's flight model is the OP suggesting is incorrect?


ack-ack

He is saying that ALL aces high planes are incorrect, and that they all perform the same.

just for a quick comparison, FLY A BF109E AND A P47, A SPIT, A HOG, A ZERO, DO THEY HANDLE AT ALL THE SAME?

[Serenity]

Um... just thought I would point this out: If you look at the OPs 10 posts, all but two of them are complaining about something in the game... just saying...

[Ack-Ack]

He is saying that ALL aces high planes are incorrect, and that they all perform the same.

just for a quick comparison,FLY A BF109E AND A P47, A SPIT, A HOG, A ZERO, DO THEY HANDLE AT ALL THE SAME?

Nope, each of those planes have their unique flying characteristics in game. 

ack-ack

[Bodhi]

I've heard they leave the turbo-supercharger out of restored P-47s?  Any truth to this?


wrongway

Some owners have, and others have not.  It was more a reality of actually having the knowledge to actually work on the turbo's.  Add to it a shortage of parts, and many choose to just save weight, and leave them out.  For us in Colorado Springs, the turbo offers sea level pressures as opposed to the handicap of starting out at 6200 feet.  That makes a big difference on an aircraft like the Thunderbolt.

[BnZs]

I know the F4us have way too little torque and adverse handling effects.

Okay, here's the thing.

The F4U-1s have some of the lousiest weight to power ratios in the game. That engine is putting out 2000+ horses, but in a frikkin' HUGE airplane. I mean, sometimes I feel like a Cessna accelerates better...

Corsairs also have large and effective ailerons.

So I guess what I'm saying, why *should* what amounts to relatively small engine (by warbird standards) in a very large airframe have worse torque than some single prop "engines with saddles on them" like the La, 109? Or even the P-51, with its rather greater horsepower weight?

Was the Corsair's torque truly that awful, or was it more "rep". What I mean is, go into AHII put down full flaps and trim for 75mph IAS, power off, like you are coming onto the deck of a carrier. Now realize you are coming in abit low and slam the throttle forward. What happens? Do you think real-world pilots might have been slightly more disconcerted by that reaction considering 1. Their butts were actually in the seat and 2. They had to do slightly more than flick their wrist to correct any rolling tendency?