Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)

[Ardy123]

I have seen F4Us do incredible manoevers in game that no other plane can follow.  I do not question it.  It is a game and some people in this game have more hours on a gamers joystick in ten years than any career air force pilot can get flight hours in an entire 30 year career,  Not to mention combat hours.  Its crazy insania to even try to compare the game to any version of reality.

don't forget that in the game we have the liberty of dieing and learning from our deaths. In real life, pilots could not afford to take the risks we do, nor did they have the ability to learn from many of the mistakes we make.

[dedalos]

Dedalos,  I think for many including myself this is more than a game it's a chance to step back in time and see what it was like.

I was nothing like this game. 

[TonyJoey]

To answer the original question about the F4u vs Spit9, equal pilots, I think it depends on E states. If the Spit was going a bit slower than the hog, I think the spit would have a much easier task, as that small E difference isn't enough for a hog to E fight the spit, and also makes it harder for the hog to kill the E for a quick snapshot. If the Spit was going faster then it would have the ability to completely E fight the hog, without giving the hog a breath of air. I think that there is a small window where the E's states are very close to the same, where the hog has the ability to kill it's E and turn tighter than the spit, allowing for a snapshot. The fact that it's almost more difficult to lose E in a Spit than it is to gain it, is a disadvantage that a hog pilot should look to exploit for a killshot.  

[dedalos]

Ded: I'm not going to tell you that every aspect of the flight model is right. However, this thing of people constantly claiming the F4Us shouldn't turn well because "they are big and heavy" is irritating and gets old. It is EXACTLY like claiming that heavier objects should fall faster than light ones, or that the Sun revolves around the Earth, because you know it is just so darn intuitively "right".

I agree, that is why I think everyone is wrong.  6 years ago, F4Us and 109s could not turn.  Few years ago, they learned how to do it.  Both were based on the most accurate data, best ever modeling, etc etc.  So which model was right?  I could not tell you but you can see why people may question the models.

Last night I was turning a G6 inside a 38J 10 feed off the ground with the stall buzzer on.  After what seemed to be 10 turns i gained enough for a shot.  Can a G6 do that?  I don't know.  Would anyone consider it in real life?  I know I wouldn't.  Its a game.  Nothing is realistic.  Not the war, the engagements, the silly buildings, the way a field is captured, even the flames are not modeled right.  Why would you think that the planes are and how could anyone imagine how the real stuff was like?

[BnZs]

I agree, that is why I think everyone is wrong.  6 years ago, F4Us and 109s could not turn.  Few years ago, they learned how to do it.  Both were based on the most accurate data, best ever modeling, etc etc.  So which model was right?  I could not tell you but you can see why people may question the models.

Last night I was turning a G6 inside a 38J 10 feed off the ground with the stall buzzer on.  After what seemed to be 10 turns i gained enough for a shot.  Can a G6 do that?  I don't know.  Would anyone consider it in real life?  I know I wouldn't.  Its a game.  Nothing is realistic.  Not the war, the engagements, the silly buildings, the way a field is captured, even the flames are not modeled right.  Why would you think that the planes are and how could anyone imagine how the real stuff was like?

I've heard different opinions on this "F4Us and 109s couldn't turn in AHI" issue.

[thorsim]

well here is the crux of the red bull thing (as i understood it) ...

wing size does not change with g forces, but effective weight does.  so at 1 g flight a plane with identical wing-loading that is 100lbs heaver you say shows no disadvantage to it's lighter opponent (we disagree there) ...

however under 5 g's the effective weight difference is now 500lbs and the wing sizes have not changed so the heavier plane now under 5g's has a significant wing-loading disadvantage, does it not?

so would not the lighter plane with the same wing-loading tend to have an advantage in a maneuver fight as it's relative effective weight and loadings under G-loads becomes less and less as the Gs increase during maneuvers?

could not the same be said for lift-loading under g-forces

could something similar be said for power-loading relative to weight/mass and prop efficiency lag giving the lighter plane with similar power loading an acceleration advantage as the throttle settings and speeds vary in a fight?

is not that why planes that need to maneuver well to accomplish their design intent tend to be as small and light  as possible.

are not all these planes, propeller driven fighter planes of WW-2, as small as possible while meeting their design intent.  are not the hog and jug as small as possible to be able to carry the engine and ordinance their intended missions required over the distances the missions demanded?

therefore does not the maneuver fight advantage usually favor the smaller lighter aircraft with a few extreme exceptions?

? ? ?

[Bronk]

Hey if you type "luftwhiner" in your ignore list you can no longer see thorism's posts. Who knew?

[thorsim]

Hey if you type "luftwhiner" in your ignore list you can no longer see thorism's posts. Who knew?

almost 20 mins and that is the best you guys can do ...

you all are slipping

[Bronk]

Hey we need to keep at least one of you luftwhiners around. We need someone to point and laugh at.

[thorsim]

i thought you were ignoring me ...

disinformation ?   

[mtnman]

almost 20 mins and that is the best you guys can do ...

you all are slipping

You assume you're entertaining enough that we're all riveted to our seats waiting for you to post again?

If both planes are pulling 5G's, with identical wing loading, they're both pulling 5G's with identical wing-loading.  You think one would turn tighter?

[Soulyss]

Isn't weight of the aircraft factored into determining wing loading?  If you have two aircraft with identical wing loading but one is heavier then the other variable in the equation must also be different.  

If X+Y=Z and you change X and Z remains constant then Y must also change, Thor's last post doesn't make any sense to this layman.

[Bronk]

i thought you were ignoring me ...

disinformation ?   

I see sarcasm is lost on you. I wouldn't ignore you, the luftwhine is far to entertaining to ignore.

[Ack-Ack]

Hey we need to keep at least one of you luftwhiners around. We need someone to point and laugh at.

ack-ack

[thorsim]

well both at 5g indicates the same rate of turn (fixing all other parameters, of course), but i would intuitively think that the lighter plane would do it in a smaller area and or bleed less energy in the process of that turn as the forces it is dealing with are less by factors.

but mostly i am relaying what the pilot was explaining about weight advantages re the air races.  strictly speaking these factors would not be as relevant in TRW because high G dogfights were very much the exception and not the  rule.  that is why in TRW often times further higher faster were often the primary design goals.

however in the games high G dogfighting is much more common and in those situations the dynamic flight consequences should show up more than in the real world.  

You assume you're entertaining enough that we're all riveted to our seats waiting for you to post again?

If both planes are pulling 5G's, with identical wing loading, they're both pulling 5G's with identical wing-loading.  You think one would turn tighter?