Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)

[humble]

Translation: The Pony can succeed as an E-fighter against the Hog, or run away home if it likes. The Pony can build an E-advantage over the Hog eventually. But it takes a day and a half, so really the Pony is better off avoiding the Hog and looking for something you already have an E-advantage or maneuver parity with before his ~25 minutes of fuel runs out. 

The pony is a plane defined by its strengths more so then any other IMO with the exception of the 190/152. The pony doesn't need to build an advantage it starts with one. The real key is exploiting it, which is not easy. Very easy to tell when your being stalked by a pony (or 190/152) "ace" vs the typical driver who either is totally ineffective and just buzz bombs you occasionally or makes a pass or two gets frustrated and  serves himself up on a platter...or worst of all goes screaming on by compressed only to lawn dart out of proxy range.

My only point here is to point out the reality that the P51 will completely control a fight vs an F4U (other then a -4) from a performance envelope perspective. However the Hog will attract pilots and the Pony will attract predators and the two do not mix well. A pilot wants a fight and a predator doesn't offer one so the "good" Hog driver is frustrated and victimized by the "good" pony driver accept on those relatively rare occasions where the pony driver elects to "fight fair"...which really isn't a fair fight since the pony is designed as a predator. From a "co-e" start at 15k or so the pony can gain the upper hand in a few minutes...

[Saxman]

Too bad the Hog shoots him down 30 seconds into his 5 minute effort to gain the E advantage he needs.

As I've said before, the P-51's strengths are nowhere NEAR significant enough over the F4U to radically alter a Co-E situation in the manner you describe. Everything you describe is DEPENDENT on a starting advantage, the Pony just doesn't have the overwhelming "double superiority" that would make it possible to generate within a reasonable time frame to remain aggressive enough to keep the pressure on without the risk of over-commitment.

It's an illusion to say the P-51 can force the fight under all circumstances. Unlike the Tempest, which can instantly jump to warp speed if it needs to get away, the P-51 isn't going to win the quarter mile, so once agains he needs that starting advantage to have the head of steam to do so. Can't tell you how often I've forced a higher P-51 to engage just by entering a shallow dive out to build speed and bait him down off his perch.

[mtnman]

I'm going to have to say that I agree with humble on this.  The only thing I'd disagree with is the time it takes the P51 to get an E-advantage.  IMO, he can do it very quickly in an "equal" start 1 on 1, with the time and space he needs to handle the fight.

All the P51 needs to do is set up the merge to "lose", which will cause a huge percentage of F4U pilots to be predictable and scrub E for position.  By that, I mean if the P51 dives for speed in the "normal" merge we all do so often, and "accidentally" allows the F4U to pass slightly under the P51, the F4U will almost definitely pull an immelmann, and probably a pretty hard one at that.  The harder the F4U pulls, the more E he scrubs, and the closer to black-out he gets, which limits his vision and his ability to quickly detect that the P51 has not pulled an immelmann.  The P51 just flies straight for a "K" or so, and gently pulls up into max zoom.  If the P51 does this "right", the F4U cannot follow him up.  If he does, he's roped and dies.  If he doesn't, and stays level/lower than the P51, he's just going to be a target for the F4U.

If this initial maneuver isn't enough for the P51 (or if the F4U doesn't pull a hard immelmann), he just sets up to do it again.  And again.  And again.  There's really nothing the F4U can do about it.  The best the F4U can hope for is to dodge the P51's gun passes, and do it long enough that the P51 pilot makes an error, or gets frustrated and thinks he can slow down and saddle up on the F4U.

The fine line the P51 plays with is extending far enough on each pass to be E-conservative for his reversals, but stay close enough to the F4U to keep the pressure applied between passes.  The P51 can't allow a lot of horizontal separation, while the F4U will be making every effort to maximize horizontal separation.  If the P51 extends more than about 3K, the F4U has time to think, and maneuver to his advantage.  If the P51 stays much closer than that, he runs a real risk of falling into the F4U's trap.

In reality, I use this same tactic on 109's, P51's, and 190D9's; planes that are faster than me, so if they stay fast I can't catch them.  I'll purposely "lose" the merge to get them to pull a hard immelmann, and scrub enough speed that they can't get away.  Then I pressure the heck out of them to keep them turning.  Then I shoot them.

And I'll do similar things to take away the E-advantage of a plane that attacks me from a higher position.

Getting an E-advantage over another plane isn't really very difficult at all for the most part, especially when you take into account how fights are "normally" fought in AH.

This is essentially the same thing the F4U can do to other planes that are "difficult" for the F4U to slow down and turn with.

Now, granted, this isn't how most F4U/P51 fights go.  Which is why the P51 isn't really a very threatening opponent for many pilots.  P51 pilots who fight like this will probably want to de-tune channel 200.  Be that as it may, the idea here is to kill your opponent, not see if you can kill him while fighting the way he wants you to fight.

Having a faster plane than your opponent is a huge advantage, if you know how to use it.  

[BnZs]

"double superiority" that would make it possible to generate within a reasonable time frame to remain aggressive enough to keep the pressure on without the risk of over-commitment.

Ahem. "Double superiority" would refer to an advantage in both power/weight ratio AND turning. :-) Which the Pony obviously does not have here. 

[Saxman]

mtnman,

The example you're stating is purely tactical, not the matter of performance humble's arguing, and the F4U could very easily do the exact same thing to the P-51. If the F4U pilot is either alert to keep an eye on his opponent after merge or experienced enough to realize that there's more to the Corsair than dumping speed to get the flaps out there's a good probability he won't scrub off all his speed. I may start heading up as we pass each other, but immediately the first thing I look for after merge is: Where'd he go? If I don't see him coming around hard I'm not afraid to either extend myself for the next run, or swing around on an easier reverse to keep my speed.

If the Corsair pilot has his eyes open knows how to work his E in this situation that 51 is in for no less of a rough time.

BnZ,

Don't mind me, I'm just staying within the context of humble's argument.

[mtnman]

What good would the performance advantages be if the tactics are inappropriate?

The P51 is faster, and climbs faster.  There's really no reason it should be worried about something that can't catch it (assuming the "equal" start scenario).  It can catch the F4U, and it can get away from the F4U.  The F4U can't catch the P51, and can't get away from the P51.  The P51 gets to dictate the terms it will fight under.  The F4U doesn't; it needs to convince the P51 to fight in a way that's beneficial to the F4U (and yes, in AH the P51 is generally willing to do that).

Assume both pilots merge,and use identical tactics.  Neither HO's.  Neither pulls a hard immelmann.  Extend out 3-4K, and try again.  And again.  Both pilots play it smart, neither will commit to scrubbing a bunch of E.  How long can the F4U compete like this, since the P51 is faster, and climbs faster?  The F4U is eventually going to be lower than the the P51.  The P51 can reverse with high yo-yo's, just as the F4U can, but will get higher or maintain alt while the F4U loses it.  The longer this goes on the more obvious the advantage for the P51.

Say the F4U gets behind the P51, but not close enough for a shot.  Now what?  He can't catch the P51, and if the P51 uses his speed and climb to maintain separation while gradually climbing, he's soon above the F4U. 

That's an easy tactic for the P51.  He just gets above the F4U and rolls in for a shot.  If the F4U follows, he plays into this strength for the P51.  If he turns off, he gives the P51 an angles advantage in addition.  Sure, he can dodge when the P51 comes in for a shot, but he'll almost definitely lose more E in the process than the P51 will (if they both fly perfectly).  The F4U is defensive, and can't get the upper hand unless the P51 pilot gives it to him.  If the P51 screws up, and allows his advantage to neutralize, ha can just re-build it.  If he really screws up and gets E-disadvantaged, he may still be able to re-build his advantage, if he isn't killed quickly enough by the F4U.

Killing the F4U won't be easy for the P51, for sure.  He doesn't have huge, easily exploitable advantages.  The advantages he does have though, should keep him safe and allow him to attach as he wants/needs to.  The F4U on the other hand, can't really attack what he can't catch.

[Big Rat]

I can see Humble's argument, and mtnman pretty much told the story.  Now must of us good hog drivers rarely run across the smart pony, most are easy kills.  For that matter I normally like to pick fights with pony's with my A20, and almost always win, becouse they try and turn fight me.  But we are talking can the aircraft do it, if flown properly, of course, just like a lot of the 109's can, especially a K4 in the right hands.

 
BigRat

[humble]

Too bad the Hog shoots him down 30 seconds into his 5 minute effort to gain the E advantage he needs.

As I've said before, the P-51's strengths are nowhere NEAR significant enough over the F4U to radically alter a Co-E situation in the manner you describe. Everything you describe is DEPENDENT on a starting advantage, the Pony just doesn't have the overwhelming "double superiority" that would make it possible to generate within a reasonable time frame to remain aggressive enough to keep the pressure on without the risk of over-commitment.

It's an illusion to say the P-51 can force the fight under all circumstances. Unlike the Tempest, which can instantly jump to warp speed if it needs to get away, the P-51 isn't going to win the quarter mile, so once agains he needs that starting advantage to have the head of steam to do so. Can't tell you how often I've forced a higher P-51 to engage just by entering a shallow dive out to build speed and bait him down off his perch.

I'm sorry but your delusional here. Your not going to force a pony to do anything. Sure you can bait a pony but why is a good pony driver going to lose to you in 30 seconds? He has no advantage in pressing home a fight with you. what your describing is a "fight" with the typical marginally skilled pony driver. Please show me a clip of you whupping on a top notch pony driver that quickly. You go into a fight with skat, tango, steve or any other top pony driver thinking your just gonna bury the stick in your belly and he'll carve intitials in the top of your cockpit in about 90 seconds. Very few guys fly the pony well enough to really control a hog at typical AH engagement alts but those that do will eat you up if you think you'll force a fight on them...in fact you make it easier for them. The pony is not to the best of my knowledge is not double superior to the F4U except possibly in high speed low G turns (thinking 310, 2g 1 notch of flaps type stuff maybe) however it will build a +E state with relative ease.

[ink]

the only 51 driver I have fought that I could not kill was Steve, but he couldn't get me ether,

I was in the Hurri2C.

it really comes down to who is flying the plane, who has better SA, who is better at targeting, who knows how to use his planes advantage's.



my $.02

[humble]

I'm going to try and clarify some of my comments above to make a bit better sense. By circumstance I happened to spend an hour or so working with someone last night. I'll always get as much (and sometimes more) out of those sessions then the  guy I'm "helping". A lot of what we covered last night is applicable here IMO. Every "trainer" (again I am not part of the official cadre) will approach things a bit differently and has different strengths. I've always been best with guys who have a reasonable foundation in place and a strong desire to get better...in effect I'm a stepping stone along the path. In my mind at the relevant level we have a combination of technical issues, misconception and concepts not yet acquired. Sorting out and ranking (for lack of a better word) these stumbling blocks is a big part of having some positive impact. Normally I'll start out with the "student" in his favorite ride and select something that is appropriate as a foil.

In this case 109G vs P-40B, this allows the opportunity to demonstrate technical proficiency separate from any inadvertent manipulation I'll introduce. Basically it lets me focus on purely technical issues as I present various looks and tactics. From here we moved to the 109G vs the P-40E which is a much more formidable adversary. At this point my ability to shape the fight is much greater and we were able to uncover a basic conceptual issue...not a misconception but an additional level of insight that all formidable pilots would view as fundamental. As we flew and talked we hit on exactly the looks, moves and counters that were giving him fits vs quality opponents. So as we fought and I gave him a running commentary on vox of what I was doing the light bulb went on and within a few fights he was able to successfully recognize, counter and then apply this concept himself. We then moved on to the P-47D11 vs 109/Nikki and he was able to further integrate the concept into his flying under a variety of more complicated "looks" from me and recognize and counter the various manipulations I gave him more and more quickly.

From my perspective the F4U is the ultimate AH swiss army knife and manipulating the other guy is second nature to a good hog driver, to the point were often we can sucker a guy into a position so bad that any choice he makes will get him killed. This can become so second nature that separating out true relative performance from "pilot error" is often not easy. While we all have favorite rides one thing that my time as a trainer did teach me was separating my perception of a planes ability from its actual capabilities. Especially since way back in the stone age the TA was a live fire arena with a pumped up ammo load. Playing target drone to a guy with 10,000 rounds of .50 cal (if memory serves me right) meant you got real good at learning his rides actual limits or your got a new plane. Getting lit up 2 or 3 times in a row by your "trainee" would be a bad thing:)

As mentioned again and again here and in every other thread pilot is the major part of the equation, by definition that means that inducing an error is in fact a major element in ACM. However to automatically assume the ability to induce that error is not appropriate in this venue IMO. In fact the guys that give me fits are the ones immune to induced error, they press the advantage and disengage and reset when the fight gets to equal. In effect they fight as close to a technically flawless fight as possible, understand the correct concepts and apply them specific to both circumstance and the plane match up. When you run inot one of these guys in a plane incapable of either forcing the fight or disengaging at will then you have in effect brought a knife to a gun fight.

[humble]

One last comment on this subject thats applicable but on a tangent. As I mentioned in the other thread on main BBS I had some fun fights on Sunday spitXVI vs F4U. Now the 1st encounter he came in with a bit of alt and E but went sushi on me. So we went a few twirls and he caught me good on a crossing shot causing a PW and oil leak. I trundled out of dodge as a squaddie dove in, F4U proceeded to get my squaddie tangled up so I turned back...squaddie died before I got there and I blacked out one time to many...this set up a series of fights that were in general quite good outside of the 1st fight and one later where I followed him out a ways and we had more of a dueling merge type fight.

Generically he normally came in a bit hot but immediately got in the phone booth with me transitioning seamlessly from a +E to an angles attack. Which literally got a chuckle on squad vox out of me. I had visions of the old bugs bunny/daffy duck cartoon where they are doing the robin hood fight with the quarter staffs and Daffy keeps going spin, twirl, parry, thrust and then his nose pops up. Here I am watching the swiss army knife sawing back into a vertical descending rolling scissors on me...not only can't I slow the @#@$ stinkin spit down but I have no clue what exactly I want to be doing. Everything I do to slow the spit down manipulates the lift vector and changes everything subtly but I have zero feel for where exactly I want to put it since the "rules" don't allow me to convert to a spiral climb disengage in the vertical...so trapped in the confines of a phone booth fight I'm really stuck staying away from the pointy end of the hog till the fight stabilizes and the spits power band takes control.

My points here aremore or less two fold.

1) The Hog driver elected to fight a more or less "fair fight" vs maintaining his initial advantage, although the hog has a significant exploitable advantage while the fight slows as well. Not many (if any) other plane in the game has this level of versatility.

2) Even a reasonably seasoned pilot often is put in situations beyond the scope of there absolute knowledge and is more or less winging it. While the hog undoubtedly nurtures tremendous imagination and adaptability in those that fly it the underlying reason is the innate ability the plane has to be flown successfully in so many ways. When you try and compare a plane like a pony with a more limited range of options you can easily lose sight of the advantages it does have. Put a good stick in both planes and film a successful sortie and he'll look better in the hog then in the pony...I guarantee it. Same pilot...different options.

[Creton]

109 k4  against anything in set.

Go taters!!!!!!

CRETON

[ink]

109 k4  against anything in set.

Go taters!!!!!!

CRETON

   I enjoy takin out the 109K4 in my Hurri

but then again I think the hurri at ALT is one of, if not the deadliest plane in game.

but I have had a 38 friggin turn fight with me and I was amazed at how well he did,   and some of the F4U drivers who really know that plane can make it extremely difficult, if not imposable to kill.

[BnZs]

The problem with Hurri's is not that they can't be beaten. They can, any half-way decent E-fighter can build an overhead at allows them to go on the offensive.

The problem with Hurris, and here I mean specifically the HurrIIC, is that when they sense that another aircraft has gained the position to be "cutting across the circle" and getting guns on them, can just turn a little harder and whirl around and face the opposition.

This is neither a valid reversal nor even a really valid defense since it does not solve the problem of getting the Hurri out of the opposition's gunsight, but most pilots in most planes won't risk a head-on with the Hurri, although several planes have sufficient firepower to also ruin the Hurri's day if they choose to accept the M.A.D proposition. But practically EVERY plane has the ability to out-run the Hurri, and doing this while calling in a friend to help pick the Ho'icane'er is both sensible and justified in this case.

Not saying its just Hurris mind you, you see N1Ks, Spitfires, and even sometimes Brewsters and Fm2s pulling the same HO "tactic" when it becomes clear the energy fighter isn't going to fly like an idiot against them.

   I enjoy takin out the 109K4 in my Hurri

but then again I think the hurri at ALT is one of, if not the deadliest plane in game.

but I have had a 38 friggin turn fight with me and I was amazed at how well he did,   and some of the F4U drivers who really know that plane can make it extremely difficult, if not imposable to kill.

[ink]

The problem with Hurri's is not that they can't be beaten. They can, any half-way decent E-fighter can build an overhead at allows them to go on the offensive.

The problem with Hurris, and here I mean specifically the HurrIIC, is that when they sense that another aircraft has gained the position to be "cutting across the circle" and getting guns on them, can just turn a little harder and whirl around and face the opposition.

This is neither a valid reversal nor even a really valid defense since it does not solve the problem of getting the Hurri out of the opposition's gunsight, but most pilots in most planes won't risk a head-on with the Hurri, although several planes have sufficient firepower to also ruin the Hurri's day if they choose to accept the M.A.D proposition. But practically EVERY plane has the ability to out-run the Hurri, and doing this while calling in a friend to help pick the Ho'icane'er is both sensible and justified in this case.

Not saying its just Hurris mind you, you see N1Ks, Spitfires, and even sometimes Brewsters and Fm2s pulling the same HO "tactic" when it becomes clear the energy fighter isn't going to fly like an idiot against them.

of course they can be beaten I kill them quite easily.(for the most part)

you will not find me HOing in my Hurri, unless I am very outnumbered, even then I don't like to. HOing is a lame tactic in a "Game" when no one really dies, I always go for the saddle, although, I have pretty much givin up the Hurri because of the reason's you state, just too damn slow, but when I want to get revenge on someone this is the plane I use,  because I know it so well, and I know without a doubt 1vs1 it will destroy almost any that try to "fight" it, whether they use E fighting or Knife fighting, heck any tactic, the only choice they have is to run.

again though I have ran into some great sticks that do stuff in there planes that is surprising.

Today perfect example I was trying out the F4U-1A, mind you I DO NOT fly this plane often,  I came across a P-40 well we get into a very good fight I started out with ALT advantage, did a couple of BnZ passes missed every shot, we fought a few minutes and I could tell right away this guy knew his bird, he ends up killing me, so I re roll the F4 again, this time we meet it's more equal ALT and the fight is much shorter, me taking a trip to the tower, so it's revenge time, I roll the Hurri2C we fight again I had a bit of ALT on him but I know he knows his stuff so I get serious and within a few turns he is in the tower, he rolls again, this time it was over even quicker, but yet here is this friggin P-40 turning with my Hurri, the first time in that match up he even got a couple pings on me.

 it really does come down to who is behind the controls and there knowledge of that ship! and knowledge of what they are fighting against, and it's capabilities.


INK out