Author Topic: Aircraft Sizes.  (Read 980 times)

Offline wells

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 1999, 01:10:00 AM »
I dont' think it would be that bad funked,

It would have to depend on the maximum range that you wanted to be able to make out the orientation (I have no idea what a realistic range would be for a fighter sized plane).  Sure, you wouldn't be able to tell range if the maximum range was only 1500 yrds, but if we're talking 5000 yrds or so (3 miles?), then you'd probably still be able to tell range.  A plane at d50 would be like looking at one at d15 or so in WB.  It would still get big pretty quick as you got close enough to shoot, at least I think it would.  Might be worth a try anyway...just to see.

funked

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 1999, 07:44:00 AM »
So the plane gets bigger as you get closer, but the rate at which it gets bigger is slightly less than in real life?

That might work.  

Note that they've already imposed an artificial restriction on how small the plane can get - the "dots" are several pixels in size.

I just want them to make sure that any of this stuff is a user-defined setting.  I'll stick with the proper sizes thank you.  

Offline Pyton

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 1999, 09:36:00 AM »
Just a point about that "bumblebee can't fly" thing (it's something of a crusade for me  ). The proof prooves only that bumblebees can't GLIDE, not that bumblebees can't FLY.

When the engineer who made the calculations did it he failed to take into account the movement of wings and this version spread around. Later when he checked it he took into account the movement of wings it was clear that bumblebee could easily fly, but science prooving that bumblebees can't fly was a much better story than science prooving that they can fly.

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funked

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 1999, 10:20:00 AM »
Heheh see I told ya that scientist was a handsomehunk.  

There's another similar fantasy that the motion of a spinning top can not be predicted by physics.  Yawwwnnnn.  

Offline Toad

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 1999, 12:16:00 AM »
Gentlemen,

This is _exactly_ the type of discussion I had hoped to see develop.

I just got in from a 3-day , though, and I'm flat toasted. So, I'm going to re-read in a day or two and digest and comment on these ideas. The only way we're going to raise the bar is to come up with some ideas and give them a try.

Bless you all...sniff!

BTW, Funked, the whole damn trip I was thinking of this comment of yours:

"Where I work my results better frikkin match real life or else some stick & rudder monkey ends up walking or doing a Superman impression"

Basically, if you screw up big time, somebody else does the dying.

We have got to get THAT into OUR next contract  

(A joke, son, just a joke!)

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 1999, 07:39:00 PM »
First, I think we all agree that the "hit map" has to remain the correct size. Even if we experiment with plane art size, the damage/hit area should remain where it is.

Second, I think Fats has a valid point on the gamma correction idea. I agree with him that the game is dark and it's a pain that we can't easily alter it in the game.

This should be done now and it shouldn't be too hard. Camo should have an effect, of course, but with most of the terrain a "frog-skin green" the terrain texture itself is "camo." So we have camo planes flying over camo terrain. If all the ground texture were field, forest or buildings that would help but framerates would suffer. Perhaps it would help to make terrain textures a bit more unfriendly to aircraft by altering the color.

Third, I still believe ICONS are the enemy. Thus, the goal is to provide essentially the same ACM cues that icons presently provide but to do that without the huge neon halos.

So, we've basically got to convey country, type and range by using aircraft color, shape and size. As I see it, those are the only real variables,unless you guys can think of another.

Here's some ideas to kick around:

Range might be handled by using a known color scaling. The shape would be black at long range, changing to a dark gray then gray then the color scheme of the aircraft. This would give 4 "range categories". Use black at long range (6+ miles), dark gray (6-2), gray (2-1) and inside a mile use the color texture.

We could use larger shapes in the same way. Thus even at 6+ miles bombers would be larger than fighters. A big black shape is a buff, a 1/2 size of that is a fighter. If you zoom, you might be able to tell type inside of, say 4 miles or so. In zoom, telltale color marks should appear on the shape to tell friend/foe. For example, in zoom at 4 miles, you see red tips on spinner, wingtips and stab of enemies, green on friends.

Then inside of a mile we use current plane colors and perhaps _slightly_ (5%? 10%) increase plane size, with the friend/foe coloring as above.

I don't suggest that this is the answer. It's a place to start the discussion and then perhaps give a system something like this a chance.

The icons are bogus, no way around it.

We're going to have to experiment to see if we can come up with a workable alternative.

BTW, I don't think any icons should be user selectable. Once we get rid of them, they're gone. It's part of SA. We're working towards as much realism as we can get. It will take some doing, but icons aren't in it.

Flame on...but this is meant not to condemn but improve.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline fats

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 1999, 08:58:00 PM »

It would be very well possible to have user settable scale factor for aircraft size. The coding part is almost trivial ( damn I love making statements like that, hate them when I hear them daily from others though! ).

Just do .planeScale 5000 and you get planes even Toad can see! You'll get lotsa weird effects with that though, as gun hits and collisions would/should still be checked against the normal sized volume. I guess people will then find a happy medium that suits them - balance between weird visuals and more visible planes.

There should be a reasonable maximum value limit how ever. Because you couldn't hide behind a mountain for example if your wings stick through from the other side on someone's FE. Make a SA macro for your programmeable TM-CH-fancy-stick: ".planeScale 10000; wait; wait; wait; wait; wait; wait; .planeScale 1;" so you can see folks easily but still shoot the normal shapes. Or perhaps if you have a two stage trigger make the first stage make planes normal size so you can shoot at the normal 1:1 visuals.

Mind you I have _no interest_ to use such system. The icons are the perfect sollution for me at the moment. The nature of icons making you quite easily seeable doesn't bother me, as AH/AW/WB is not WWII air combat with WWII planes for me nor do I want it to be so anymore, it's air combat with WWII-like planes.


//fats


Offline Duckwing6

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 1999, 04:36:00 AM »
In regard of "Stick and rudder monkey looks outta windscreen to see another similar size plane beeing piloted by another stick and rudder monkey at medium to low altitude at a normal visibility day" ... i'm doing a lot of glider towing on some _very_ busy airfields here (what's this underscore deal btw   and i can tell you that i have my head on a swivel the whole time to see objects about the same size a WW2 fighter like a 109 had (this is a tiny aircraft and it's pretty darn fast too) and i can tell you that you won't see those at distances like 5 miles.. (we don't have TCAS either)  sometimes you're surprised on how LATE you see another incoming traffic even thou you heared him calling base and you know where to look for him.. you might say now that usually  the dogfights in WW2 were at high altitude .. but still between GND and 20.000 feet there is a lot of haze and stuff that hinders visibility (and that's where 99% of all AH fights are ) .. plus windscreens are less than perfectly clear (scrapes, bugs, etc...) . i think as far as realism is concerned it's not that bad to get only a little dot above 2-3 miles out (actually IMHO this dot should be light grey further out and get darker wehn you get closer). I have to admit thou that i can't really tell what the orientation of a bogey is in AH until i'm pretty close.. but hey that's not really unrealistic either because in RL you'd judge his orientation by the relative movement of the target until you can realy make out details...
Regarding Icons... well i don't like them either but i guess they are necessary for playability reasons unless you give a certain plane set to every nation adn each of this planes has a distinct color scheme or some other cue that helps you ID it... i would like too see them come on a bit later thou (again the range where you could normaly easily ID the bogey in RL... not easy to say  

Duckwng6

Offline leonid

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 1999, 06:58:00 AM »
Another thing to remember is the resolution you play at.  In brand W, I used to play with a resolution of 640 x 480.  This gave me an advantage when looking for cons, since pixels were larger.  I knew of a few others who did so for just that reason.

As for icons, I'll be glad when they're either displayed at closer ranges, or done away with, altogether.  However, I'm fine with present plane sizes.


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ingame: Raz

Offline Toad

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 1999, 09:42:00 AM »
Fats: Hey! Yah, I'm getting older but I was still 20/15 on my last Class 1 vision test. I'm just now starting to wear the "cheaters" to read phone books though <g>.

I think you have a real point with the gamma though.

Duck: What's with the "wall-o-text" anyway? <g>. I spend most of my time above 18K anymore and up there I've found that the dots first appear dark, transitioning to lighter then full color as they close. I still wallow around in the dirt in my PT though and there is some difference in visual range and air clarity there. Aspect has a lot to do with how far away you notice and/or ID a bogie, I agree.

As far as range, I have seen a 109 from the air and I could see it at 5 miles. It was the Cavanaugh Museum 109 at the Nellis show in '97. They had the Battle of Britain flight Spit and the 109 chasing each other while the trainers orbited away from the field. Yes, it's Nevada desert air and it was pretty clear but there they were, low and co-alt and they were quite recognizable. Anecdotal right? Sure, for you guys. I saw it, so it's fact to me.

I think icons shouldn't be used in close.If used at all, they should work way out there, when present technology can't give you visual cues.

We can come up with colored wing tips or something to show friend/foe and if you're close (gun range for sure) you should be able to see "type" without a bogus neon cue. At medium ranges, use a quick zoom to tell type or something like that.
 
Leonid, don't you find it interesting that lower technology (640x480) gives better acm cues than hi-tech? Sort of underscores what I've been saying about progress. 10 years ago I was playing AW on a 386/40 with a 1MB video card on a 13" monitor. Now I'm running a 450 with a 32MB card and a 19" monitor. Despite the technological progress, we are still dependent on bogus neon icons to give us acm cues. Time to demand better, I think!

TAFN...I'm off to slip the surlies.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fishu

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Aircraft Sizes.
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 1999, 10:34:00 AM »
I Have not read any previous messages (like I would have time to read 39 messages  
But this is based on my personal opinion about aircraft sizes.

I play with 800x600 resolution and 15" monitor + slide show hardware.
After v0.37 I have seen planes very well and even able to identify planes from 9000 yards or so, without looking for the icon.
What comes to the size of plane, Its not too small from 1000 yards, I see its wings still fine without any zoom (usually i just mess up my aiming with zoom, not used to it).
From close distance they really look big (if gets that close without colliding before hitting aircraft <read; bug> )

After all, current size of planes is fine and also IF those planes are small (for someones), I should be happy because that makes people learn to shoot from CLOSER distances, instead of spread & pray tactics from 700 yards into maneuvering planes.
(talk about more realism and more intresting fights)