What proves more skill, a one on one, or kills?

[gyrene81]

OK, define skill for me.

Explain why do you think lag plays any role here.  Response of what to what?  Packets come and go every 250ms

The guy with the 5 years will destroy the two weeker.  Because of experience and skill.  What does the lap top have to do with anything?


Look, if you suck in this game, try harder.  Dont look for excuses 

Well, considering skill has a different meaning than experience I'll give it to you right from the dictionary:

Skill:
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

Experience:
knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone

A skill is gained through experience...not the other way around. And I wouldn't have said anything if you weren't trying to show how uber your cyber nutz are.



I'll dummy this down a bit...a person with a 15 inch screen using a twisty stick has 2 disadvantages, one being lower visibility, it's more difficult to see detail on a 15 inch than a 22 inch, should be pretty self explanatory...the other is a twisty stick does not allow the level of control over a toonplane that a programmable stick and throttle quadrant with rudder pedals gives a person. Anyone who has made the investment and upgraded from a twisty stick to a full CH flight system will tell you, they have much better control.

And lag does play a role in this environment...though I have grossly oversimplified it...response to input, meaning push a button and the time it takes for the system to register that input...a person with 5ms connection is registering data packets to the server much faster than a person with a 100ms connection...in some ways the person with the faster connection could be said to have a slight disadvantage but that is a different discussion.


Just for FYI, I don't make excuses for anything...anyone who has been on the servers while I'm on will tell you that when it comes to flying in toonville, I'm the first to admit I suck and I don't have a problem with it.

[JunkyII]

Oh so Lag is the reason Im not as good as say...Krupnski...Ill use that excuse from now on








As far as "easy mode" about the luft planes I would like to stick a 2 weeker in a spitfire or any other plane for that matter, then sit him in a 109.....hes definately guna like the other ones better till he can unleash the 109s awesome fury

[gyrene81]

All of these planes are pretty much equally dead in average hands being on the defensive on the deck against a large crowd of bandits. But all I think they are all equally useful as bnz/energy fighters.

Well, Ta-152 has 9minutes of WEP, compared to the P-47M's 5 minutes before it becomes a 330mph under-powered pig. And the WEP on the Jumo replenishes much quicker when not in use. The Ta-152 retains energy much better under Gs than either plane, and while its 30MM cannon is harder to hit with than .50s, it also can destroy any fighter with one ping, as opposed to the nothing or mere damage that will often come from .50s, especially the mere 6 of the P-51. The 152 is also blessed with 1/3rd more ammo for the tater gun than the K4 AND a pair of potent twenties to back up the 30MM, take long shots with, and which are liable to hit the enemy plane if you miscalculate the lead on the 30mm abit.

Really, it comes down to which shooting style are you better at, are you a steady enough hand to snipe from 500 yards or do you have to stick the gun right up their tailpipe? If the latter, the 30's insta-death lethality gives it an edge. Of course, we all know that for 90% of the players, splitting the difference and using a 20mm cannon or 4 is easiest...

There is nothing terribly daunting about using the Ta-152 to get kills in the same manner as the Pony is typically used. I also don't see don't think its inferior as a dogfighter to either a Pony or a Jug.

I dunno man...that TA-152 doesn't climb any faster than a donkey while the Pony and Jug can climb out and away much faster. True if the 152 maintains it's energy it flies really smooth but in a level turn fight it dogs out fast where the Pony and Jug can maintain energy in a turn longer. When the 152 gets close to stall speeds, it's tough to handle. It does come down to a matter of understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the planes and flying them to their strengths...but I wouldn't categorize any of the Luftwaffe planes as "easy mode" compared to a Tempest, Spixteen, Jug or Pony. Heck, even I wouldn't hesitate taking those planes into a 1v5.

Oh so Lag is the reason Im not as good as say...Krupnski...Ill use that excuse from now on

LMAO...no Junky that's not what I said...note the repeated use of the word "slight"...doesn't mean it's the primary reason. Now, take a person using a 15 inch laptop on a wireless connection sitting in Guatemala with nothing but a mouse and the keyboard and I don't care how long he's been a toon pile-it...big disadvantage unless he's vulching or picking and he's probably doing it in a Spixteen or a Typhoon.

[JunkyII]

I dunno man...that TA-152 doesn't climb any faster than a donkey while the Pony and Jug can climb out and away much faster. True if the 152 maintains it's energy it flies really smooth but in a level turn fight it dogs out fast where the Pony and Jug can maintain energy in a turn longer. When the 152 gets close to stall speeds, it's tough to handle. It does come down to a matter of understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the planes and flying them to their strengths...but I wouldn't categorize any of the Luftwaffe planes as "easy mode" compared to a Tempest, Spixteen, Jug or Pony. Heck, even I wouldn't hesitate taking those planes into a 1v5.



LMAO...no Junky that's not what I said...note the repeated use of the word "slight"...doesn't mean it's the primary reason. Now, take a person using a 15 inch laptop on a wireless connection sitting in Guatemala with nothing but a mouse and the keyboard and I don't care how long he's been a toon pile-it...big disadvantage unless he's vulching or picking and he's probably doing it in a Spixteen or a Typhoon.

I didnt see a mouse part earlier but Ill agree with you about that, mouse does make it harder but I have seen some people get good with them, take stodd to the DA he uses a mouse

[gyrene81]

I didnt see a mouse part earlier but Ill agree with you about that, mouse does make it harder but I have seen some people get good with them, take stodd to the DA he uses a mouse

If you have a good laser mouse and practice with it...surprisingly it actually takes less effort than a twisty stick...but it's sensitive to over reactions.

Anyone who can use a mouse and keyboard effectively in AH has my vote for "highly skilled toon pile-it".

Don't tell stodd I said that...his head is big enough 

[dedalos]

Well, considering skill has a different meaning than experience I'll give it to you right from the dictionary:

Skill:
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

Experience:
knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone

A skill is gained through experience...not the other way around. And I wouldn't have said anything if you weren't trying to show how uber your cyber nutz are.



I'll dummy this down a bit...a person with a 15 inch screen using a twisty stick has 2 disadvantages, one being lower visibility, it's more difficult to see detail on a 15 inch than a 22 inch, should be pretty self explanatory...the other is a twisty stick does not allow the level of control over a toonplane that a programmable stick and throttle quadrant with rudder pedals gives a person. Anyone who has made the investment and upgraded from a twisty stick to a full CH flight system will tell you, they have much better control.

And lag does play a role in this environment...though I have grossly oversimplified it...response to input, meaning push a button and the time it takes for the system to register that input...a person with 5ms connection is registering data packets to the server much faster than a person with a 100ms connection...in some ways the person with the faster connection could be said to have a slight disadvantage but that is a different discussion.


Just for FYI, I don't make excuses for anything...anyone who has been on the servers while I'm on will tell you that when it comes to flying in toonville, I'm the first to admit I suck and I don't have a problem with it.

Oh well, time to go home and from what I can see, it would have been pointless anyway 

[grizz441]

All of these planes are pretty much equally dead in average hands being on the defensive on the deck against a large crowd of bandits. But all I think they are all equally useful as bnz/energy fighters.

Well, Ta-152 has 9minutes of WEP, compared to the P-47M's 5 minutes before it becomes a 330mph under-powered pig. And the WEP on the Jumo replenishes much quicker when not in use. The Ta-152 retains energy much better under Gs than either plane, and while its 30MM cannon is harder to hit with than .50s, it also can destroy any fighter with one ping, as opposed to the nothing or mere damage that will often come from .50s, especially the mere 6 of the P-51. The 152 is also blessed with 1/3rd more ammo for the tater gun than the K4 AND a pair of potent twenties to back up the 30MM, take long shots with, and which are liable to hit the enemy plane if you miscalculate the lead on the 30mm abit.

Really, it comes down to which shooting style are you better at, are you a steady enough hand to snipe from 500 yards or do you have to stick the gun right up their tailpipe? If the latter, the 30's insta-death lethality gives it an edge. Of course, we all know that for 90% of the players, splitting the difference and using a 20mm cannon or 4 is easiest...

There is nothing terribly daunting about using the Ta-152 to get kills in the same manner as the Pony is typically used. I also don't see don't think its inferior as a dogfighter to either a Pony or a Jug.

The Ta152 is a very difficult plane to handle and kill with.  All points you make are true about its performance specs but it doesn't change the fact that players choose not to fly it.  I know most players in this game prefer the path to least resistance and easiest kills.  That's why I see so many Spit16s, Hordes, and 5th man-6th man into a 1:x gang rape.  They want kills.  Wouldn't conventional wisdom state that if the Ta152 was an equal killer to the P51D or P47M, players would be flying it with near frequency?  I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the Ta152 is a hidden secret, Soda's charts deter its use, or the fact that it's not as popular to Americans as the famous P51D Mustang is.  

Does this mean you would leave out WEP? Even though 5 minutes of it is usually ample and 9 minutes is an eternity of WEP for MA purposes? How...convenient.

No, WEP included.  I would say >95% of chases are decided within the first 60 seconds.  Either the bandit decides he can catch the guy safely within reasonable time (and not chasing into a swarm of red), or he breaks off.  WEP times will only play a role in a sustained 1+ sector chase (absurd btw) assuming each player has a reasonable % of wep left at the start of the chase.  So my point was MAX Deck Cruise speeds.

If the Spit16 has other qualities good enough to make up for mediocre top speed, it is possible other planes do as well.

The Spit16 is Eny 5 because of its absurd popularity.  Just like the Chog back in the day.  The masses of AH decided that the Spit16 was an uber ride by flying it at an alarming rate.  And yes before you ask, I would Eny 5 the P40E if all of a sudden the entire player base started flying it for all their sorties.  That's not going to happen obviously.  My general theory on this Eny stuff is Players will choose to fly the most efficient MA rides.  Simply look at the Kills and Sorties over a 6 month period and see which planes are being flown the most.  These planes are the best MA planes and should be Eny'd accordingly.

163? Are we talking about the same plane here? Because I thought thought the 163 was the one that turns like, I don't know, probably a 109 and has the speed, climb, and acceleration of a rocket.

Yes, and it requires serious throttle work and pristine tatering skills.  This is why you only see the Army of Muppets landing respectable kill tallies in it.

[Chalenge]

This is why you only see the Army of Muppets landing respectable kill tallies in it.

And there it is. 

[BnZs]

I actually prefer the tater to .50s when the target is doing rolling, twisting, flopping type gun defenses, very common. 50cals are liable to scatter hits all over such a target without doing critical damage to any one part. A tater is pretty much one and done. However, obviously .50s are much easier to hit with on simple break-turns. So, I dunno, which one does one see more of?

, Soda's charts deter its use, or the fact that it's not as popular to Americans as the famous P51D Mustang is.  

Soda is not the chart-guy, he's the review and writeup guy, and I'll venture the first research people do on the planes in this game most commonly comes from his reviews. Side by side on actual charts, the Ta-152 compares much more favorably to the Mustang, I think of it as a slightly slower Pony with big guns for most purposes.

The Spit16 is Eny 5 because of its absurd popularity.  Just like the Chog back in the day.  The masses of AH decided that the Spit16 was an uber ride by flying it at an alarming rate.  And yes before you ask, I would Eny 5 the P40E if all of a sudden the entire player base started flying it for all their sorties.  That's not going to happen obviously.  My general theory on this Eny stuff is Players will choose to fly the most efficient MA rides.  Simply look at the Kills and Sorties over a 6 month period and see which planes are being flown the most.  These planes are the best MA planes and should be Eny'd accordingly.

This implies that the market always selects the best product on a logical basis. I think 'taint nessecarily so.

[Shuffler]

I have dsl connection  in England UK (ping ~170), I have a cheap twisty stick and keyboard setup. I have beat people who live near the HTC server and fly with full hotas. Does this make me extra skillz than if i lived in Texas and had a better setup? 

sweet!

Maybe better skillz but you don't count. You don't live in Texas. 

Was probably a yankee you played that moved down here anyway. 

[DrDea]

 The guy that started this has 1 post. And he got 6 pages of replies.
  While someone that can dominate 1 on 1's is good, You also have to be able to be aware of whats going on around you in a furball. I think the better stick can regularly be around several planes in combat and normaly get several kills and egress safely.
 Numbers of kills is meaningless.

[Shuffler]

The best pilots are the ones who fight in a furball and get the least amount left of his aircraft back to base.

If you get back with most all your aircraft.... you aint spit.

[gyrene81]

The best pilots are the ones who fight in a furball and get the least amount left of his aircraft back to base.

If you get back with most all your aircraft.... you aint spit.

 Spoken like a true SAPP'R...sadly I have yet to do any better than land with both wing tips and wheels missing, oiled, pilot wounded and upside down on the runway with 1 kill.

The guy that started this has 1 post. And he got 6 pages of replies.
 

Just goes to show, toss a turd biscuit into a pig pen and every pig around will fight over it.

[grizz441]

And there it is. 

Take a look at Me163 statistics over the last few tours if you want to be bludgeoned by fact.

This implies that the market always selects the best product on a logical basis. I think 'taint nessecarily so.

The masses will fly the easiest aircrafts that will maximize kills.  Is that the "best product"?  No, it's the easiest product.  This tour, the P51D has ~12,500 Kills.  The Ta152 has 1,400 kills.  Last tour the P51D had 10 times as many kills.  You argue the Ta152 is a better aircraft and I agree, but why don't the masses 'realize' this?  I'm sure mostly everybody has flown a Ta152 at least once to see what all the fuss was about.  They probably realized quickly that the plane is unbalanced, can't roll, goes into nasty tail spins, has an incredibly unstable gun platform making it difficult to line up a shot and even when they do get the guns lined up, the pesky ballistics make it near impossible to even connect.  They then go back to their comfort zone planes which are the most popular rides in the game.  They'd rather fly the easy stuff than learn the hard stuff and suck for a while, only to be better in the end.  That's the way I have observed it and the stats don't lie.

[Banshee7]

And there it is. 

My question is:  What exactly is "respectable kill tallies"?