Author Topic: Dueling vs MA fighting  (Read 36368 times)

Offline Stiglr

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2010, 05:24:02 PM »
Better question: there were more than two people playing Targetware online at the same time?

Hehehhe, funny...

Yes, we do get a smallish crowd every now and then on Targetware. But, the FM makes it worthwhile. As is planes like the Ki-45 and others that only get whined about in this sim's Wishlist forum.  ;)

Still, for times we don't have many flying, I have plenty to do building a dozen or more aircraft, writing scenarios, 3D modeling, solving problems and what not... the goal is in sight! I really think we'll have a Target:Corregidor launch this year, without question!!! :)

Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #121 on: January 09, 2010, 05:28:00 PM »
All true, but the fact of the REAL event was, pilots with their real life tulips on the line tended to insist on having those advantages as often as they could.

Well of course.  Why wouldn't you?  If this was not a game and the tracers flying at me represented a very real danger to my life; you bet your bottom I'd be at 30,000 feet, if "playing" at all.  Thankfully, this is just a game.

Nothing you have stated (with a disclaimer than I may have missed something), with respect to "real engagements" is untrue.  However, when you look at the historical accounts of real engagements, there is nearly always a party at a disadvantage.  This goes back to your comment that DA 1v1's are "staged."  Throwing an arbitrary number out there, 90% of all kills recorded in WWII were the result of one party (a) being at a disadvantage and (b) being unaware.

The pilots with the most stick time, typically Germans, found themselves in situations where they were at a positional disadvantage, often enough.  Some; especially those with time on the Eastern Front (for whatever reason), pro-actively sought to teach newer pilots the methods by which to combat and reverse these disadvantages.  

Take it from the man himself:  "Never abandon the possibility of attack. Attack even from a position of inferiority, to disrupt the enemy's plans. This often results in improving one's own position."

How much "attacking from a position of inferiority" do you see in the MA?  I don't see much.  I see a lot of running as soon as the advantage is lost.  I think this is because the average player who finds himself at an "unexpected" disadvantage (read: "How the **** did he do THAT!?") does not understand how to turn the tables back around again.  By running, he is doing the absolute worst possible thing he can do - show the bad guy his tail.

It's a rare treat when I come across an aggressive pile-it who attacks from a disadvantage (smartly, not recklessly).  You can identify those savvy cartoon warriors within the first few seconds and you know that the fight will be a good one.  By contrast, chasing Mustangs or Doras or Tempests all over the map until they can drag you to a small air force of Spit 16's gets tiresome...

The real joy of this game for me, and for many others, are those instances where, even in the case of unequal positions, a good fight results.  

It's like chess in - not only three - but all four dimensions; the fourth being time... that ability to observe the behavior of an enemy aircraft at that particular moment; and predict what *he* intends to do and where *he* intends to be 5 seconds from then... placing *yourself* in a position with in the three spacial dimensions to gain an advantage at that position and instant.  When *both* of the contestants are doing this simultaneously, you end up with a palm-moisturizing fight that is fluid, dynamic and lasts minutes, not seconds.  

It's a rare, rare treat these days.  In fact, its so rare that, when it happens, most of the guys who have been playing AH/AW/WB for years can usually identify the other guy just by what he's flying and how he's flying it.  

The list ain't that long anymore.  If I see a Corsair on the deck, surrounded by cons, with flaps out and guns blazing,, its Skyrock.  If I see smart, but very aggressive, tactical decision making out of a 38, I know its Delirium.  Same plane, but more "passive trickery?"  Probably Soulyss.  La7's used to be immediately identifiable as Shane.  Lord help you if you came across a Spit V with another in tow... there's Levi and the H-man.  If I see a 51 below 5K and slower than the speed of sound, its Oldmn.  Etc, etc, etc, there are maybe twenty of these guys left, if that.

Point is, there is so much more to this game than landing X number of kills.  Just like women, its quality, not quantity.  I'd rather have Jenna Jameson once than Rosie O'Donnell a thousand times.  

With absolutely no malice or intent to antagonize, I would be glad to go over to the DA with you, purely for fun, to show you just how much of the game you are missing and just how much there really is to learn.  Why else to you think some of us have been playing the same games for 10-15 years?  

You can start at 20K, Ill start on the deck.  Plane of your choice and I'll show you how you got beaten afterwards... and hell... I ain't even very good anymore.  Noobs like Grizz can beat me half the time.  ;)

Cheers.

Offline Stiglr

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #122 on: January 09, 2010, 05:30:38 PM »
Sauerdaukar wrote:

Quote
Well of course.  Why wouldn't you?  If this was not a game and the tracers flying at me represented a very real danger to my life; you bet your bottom I'd be at 30,000 feet, if "playing" at all.  Thankfully, this is just a game.

And there's our main point of disagreement. I'm after a simulation experience, you settle for just a game.  I get a lot of interest and entertainment value in examining things closer to what it might have really been like, and that trumps any "game" experience.

The "game" is great when you're new to this, and just the idea of fighting virtual airplanes against other people all over the world is a real rush. But, after you do that for a bit, you realize there's an opportunity to get more. You can get some insight into the war, gain an appreciation for the men and women who flew these planes without a "respawn" option, etc. Simulations provide an equal opportunity to learn and appreciate, AND also have a lot of fun with it. With just a "game" you can get just as much fun (and waste just as much pointless time) playing Doom.

Simulation beats gaming hands down, IMO.  :aok


As for the dueling arena, nah, not at all interested. I used to sometimes allow myself to get sucked into a duel while playing IL-2 on HyperLobby, usually to shut up some idiot who had as big a mouth as I do, but no sense behind what he says. I'd use situational awareness and some real world tactics to easily beat his "mad sTyk sKiLLz" and of course, now he's whining that i'm using some kind of cheat. Pfff, like I need a cheat to beat some Nintendo refugee.  :lol

Anyway, if I ever did use a dueling arena, I'd use it as a teaching arena, where one person can learn from another using some predetermined maneuvering. I don't see it as much of a true test of skill for being able to survive in the very unpredictable world of combat.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 05:34:47 PM by Stiglr »

Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #123 on: January 09, 2010, 05:33:53 PM »
I wouldnt compare AH to Doom in any capacity but I do agree that the historical aspect of AH is a huge draw - probably for many of us here.

For that, we have some very well run scenarios.  

Its your $15, fly as you like.  My offer stands.  :)

EDIT:  As a caveat, I will again mention that my offer is without malice.  I do not desire to prove anything - I genuinely enjoy teaching.  That epiphany, or spark of realization, when a newer player "gets it" is honestly rewarding for me and many others (all the trainers, for example).  It makes the game more enjoyable for both the student and, by default, the rest of the community.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 05:42:32 PM by Saurdaukar »

Offline Stiglr

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #124 on: January 09, 2010, 05:35:52 PM »
Yes, if I did bother to fly in AH, it'd be in scenarios and events almost exclusively.

I'm so OVER the "arena" paradigm.

It's all about the mission.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #125 on: January 09, 2010, 11:38:10 PM »
:rofl I've sent your Tempest running home on several occasions. Someone comes in higher then you and you're running home in a flash. Don't talk to me about ACMs. You're a opportunitist only concerned with K/D, score and survival. You sir are a Pacerr in a bishop uniform.

Lol you have always run even with altitude and no you never have gotten close to my Tempest or you would have died of fright.
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Offline uptown

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2010, 02:37:03 AM »
Lol you have always run even with altitude and no you never have gotten close to my Tempest or you would have died of fright.
ahh yeah
Lighten up Francis

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2010, 02:51:44 AM »
Uptown I know you have grown incredibly arrogant since you have left the pups but the fact remains you have never been able to beat me 1v1 coalt in the same plane and now suddenly you have grown cocky and think you can beat me in a Tempest?

What have you been smoking?  :huh
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2010, 03:12:30 AM »
stglr,

you seem to finally be maturing.  Its been a long ugly process but I am hopeful for you.  Make your mission "simulation" and be happy with whatever happens.
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Offline Tordon22

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2010, 03:21:09 AM »
Always up for a duel myself :)

Offline Yeager

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2010, 03:24:38 AM »
This stuff is obvious.  

Being able to duel with rules is a great skill to have and is very applicable to MA style gameplay as far as entering and exiting any particular fight is concerned.

Expecting Dueling behaviors in the MA game is a poor expectation to have, silly....... and one that is wrong simply because dueling is a closed event dictated by rules and expectations of entry and exit, whereas MA play is open, a free for all anything goes event.  Thats why I prefer the MA over dueling, much more dynamic and enjoyable for me personally.
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Offline uptown

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #131 on: January 10, 2010, 03:29:49 AM »
Uptown I know you have grown incredibly arrogant since you have left the pups but the fact remains you have never been able to beat me 1v1 coalt in the same plane and now suddenly you have grown cocky and think you can beat me in a Tempest?

What have you been smoking?  :huh
:lol don't confuse arrogance for distain.  The bottom line is that you're self absorbed in avoiding anything that will interfer with your score. You go out of your way to not fight. Everyone here knows that :lol WTF are you kidding? Pretty sad a man of your age putting in all those hours in this game  :rolleyes:
And I've always been somewhat arrogant and cocky. I'll see ya around  :aok
Lighten up Francis

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2010, 04:44:58 AM »
I see you bought that line of bull over what you know to be true. You always were a little on the slow side but Im still holding out hope you will wake up one day.

Whats really sad is you thinking your all that.  :rofl
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2010, 04:47:11 AM »
Chalenge,
I wouldnt mind going to the DA with you to see if you do got the skillz unlike some of the other high score guys do. Im sure it would be a fun fight, we can even do it at the high alt bases for you :devil :salute
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Offline Steve

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2010, 11:44:46 AM »
Dueling certainly helps one become a monster in the game but it doesn't teach one everything you need to know.

Some of the best duelers in the game, guys who can fly circles around just about everyone else, tend to get picked a lot in the MA.

MA related SA is not something one will learn while dueling 1v1.  I know guys who fly into a mass of planes and call out a single plane "I got the C-hog" then ignore the rest of the bunch. In the middle of the furball 1 of two things, or both, will happen. Someone else will get a solution on the duelers target and kill them, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. Or the dueler will get picked, inducing a raging tirade from said dueler. You can count on it like the sun, a challenge to the DA will follow, as if the DA is somehow the place where one is proclaimed a good stick in the game in spite of the fact that over 90% of the fights that happen in the game happen in the MA.  This almost never fails to amuse me. I'm fallible too though, every once in a while I fall into the same trap although less and less frequently.  Later, I laugh at myself.

I've winged with these duelers as we approach a group of 5 or 6 planes.  "I've got the Ki" says the dueler. Am I supposed to handle the remaining 4 or 5 planes while you duel?    :lol
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 11:48:30 AM by Steve »
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