advise on P47....

[Dmitry]

Hello Gents and <S>

Its been a long-long ice break for me in regard of AH... for some reasons i coudnt play in MA, only H2H... H2H quite spoiled me and tho i sucked b4r I am much worth now.

Anyway I used to fly only La7 since the day it came out, but now for some reasons I feel the need for US aircrafts. They been always a tough challenge especially due to .50 cal's. It seems i just cannot lead target long enough to kill... those 10 pings i usially manage to put on the other AC is just not enough.

Now its time for a major change IMO, and I want to fly more p47's, p38's and p51. To start with I picked p47. Also a few weeks ago I have d/l Drex's film on amazing sortie that he had. Big <S> Drex and other p47 flyers. SpitLead gave me some hard time yesterday too..   <S> SpitLead i had fun fighting with ya and your squdies.

I really would be greatfull for any films, tips, pointers on with P47 to start with.. should it be P47 D 11, D25, D30? what guns should i use? should I use DT's? if so 2 or just 1? what alt should I be targeting? what fuel load should I start with?

Onceagain thx for any info in advance...

<S> and have a nice day..  

P.S. I fly for a knits all the time, and if there is a squad in Knitlandia that flyes p47's I would be really glad to participate as a temperally member.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

The 56thFG is flying the P47 mostly, I strongly encourage to contact any of us.

As far as I'm concerned, I would love to work with you but my free time is very limited those days. If by chance you can find me online, please contact me and we will go practice in the MA.

The P47 is mostly a B&Z plane. Fly with a wingman if you can, because once you are slow and low, it requires skill and luck.

I usually fly the D30, I take 50% internal and 1 CDT. If I go for a long ride, I take 2 wing tanks and a CDT. When I'm engaged I bail the wing tanks. If I get in trouble I bail the CDT. The P47-D30 will start to be agile enought to "turnfight" when reaching the 50% main, 0% aux.

You will need to play on the 2 strenghts of the P47 :
- good high speed handeling : I will compress around 550TAS and till there it still can roll/pitch great. As an example, the 109 will be very heavy in the roll while passing the 450TAS mark, the Niki will be heavy in pitch ... use that as an evasive if u have enought altitude.

- excellent stall characteristics thank to his semi-ellepticall wings : You can really push the P47 deep in his stall envellop, it will not abruptly wing over like the FWs. Be gentle on the stick and you can even "move ur nose around" while stalling.

- P47 has plenty of ammo, use it. Better be alive without a bullet left than dead with 1000 round left. Use all this ammo to perform saturation fire on 700y+ targets.

You can turnfight great any over aircraft by bleeding your E faster and cut into their turn circle, then you shoot plenty of bullets and wait for them to fly in. The problem is when u get below 170 TAS on the deck, anything outturns you.

If you fight a Niki/Spit you acn turnfight with them for 1 or 2 turns then make sure that you point ur nose down and reach 320 TAS+ as fast as possible, then you are faster and can run away. As fast as possible is important as their acceleration is far greater than yours.

My nemesis is the Yak as it does anything better than the P47, turns awsome, outaccelerate me so bad that I can pass 1 head on at 250TAS on deck and see him looping back on me and grab back my 6 from 1,600y. it's top speed is slightly higher too. So run away from those  

See you around, you will notice that the P47 will force you to think before you do something, a great Niki/Spit antidote.

Hope it can help to get u started, have fun!

Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
 

[Jigster]

I think it's all a manner of preference, as far as model and gun load out, but as far as fuel goes, 50% with or without the centerline droptank is usually more then enough.

The key to the jug is roll and rudder authority over elevator input, but that goes for most of the US planes  

[-ammo-]

Hiya dimitri-

I fly the P-47 90% of the time. My prefered ride right now is the D11 simply because its in my squads colors, namely it is modeled after the very AC that Col. Gabby Gabreski earned the majority of his kills in the ETO with.

The D11 is an early model P-47D, a razorback. As modeled in AH it seems to be a tad bit more stable at very slow speeds  than either of its 2 later model counterparts. It is an excellent platform but some people dislike the fwd and rear views, understandlebly. All I can say is keep your neck bent and get a wingman. as far as climb, roll, topspeed..there is no appreciable difference between the 3.

I always take 100% fuel in all the models if I am by myself or with the crew, unless otherwise specified. Its just me liking to do it that way. In the D11 I like taking a DT.

Forget turning this AC if you want to fly it at the most competitive level you can. Would you take a knife to a gunfight? well taking a P-47 into a furball and attempting to turn fight spitfires, N1K's, Yak's, LA7's,..etc equates to the same thing. This AC dives and zooms well, and has tremendous firepower. I think it's gun package far exceeds the LA7's, but then again I am use to it. get fairly high, get your AC fast, and keep it that way. Pick your target and dive and shoot, and zoom back away to safety. If compelled to stay tight with say a FW or a Messerscmidt then make your reversals adn your manuevers vertical. Hoard your energy.

read this
 artical

[Dmitry]

Thank you all very much.. you answers helped a lot for understanding the primer basics of dogfighting in JUG. However one thing left unspoken - the flaps. I noticed that Drex during the turn figh used 2 notch of flaps - swithcing to 1 sometimes... If you an clear the flap issue for me it  will be great.

Thank you Oliver for your offer, I will most certanly be looking for you for some lessons on P47.

[Lephturn]

Jug Flaps.

Well, the flaps on the jug work very much like most of the US Iron's combat flaps.  The first couple of notches tend to increase lift a bit at low speeds, with a fairly minimal drag penalty.  Once you get up to 3 notches, the drag penalty starts to increase fast, and it quickly becomes "not worth it" for dogfighting purposes.  The only time I use more than 2 notches of flap in a Jug is if I am trying to avoid a low speed stall or trying to avoid hitting the ground.  Of course I use full flap to slow the plane for landing.

You want to deploy flaps based on speed.  If I am turning hard down around 210 Mph or less, I'll use one notch.  When I drop to around 180 or less I'm into two notches.  I extend or retract the flaps as needed during a fight, extending them at the top of a loop for example at low speed, and pulling them back in to aid acceleration when I can.

Remember this though.  Flaps do cost you drag.  If you are having to pull to stall with a couple of notches of flap out there, you better be about to make a kill.  The one thing the Jug does NOT do well is accelerate.  That means that once you get that slow, it will take a long while to get back up to speed.  Try not to burn that extra E until you have to, and be aware that once you are turning with flaps out, you need to make the kill and get out ASAP.  Ideally you still have enough altitude to do a 0G dive back to a higher speed right after making the kill.  If you miss your shot, learn to extend away and come back later.  Without an energy advantage the Jug is in trouble vs. most aircraft in the game, so if you've blown your E and slowed down but missed the shot, realize it and GET OUT.  Knowing when to make that call is the hard part... and remember the Jug doesn't accelerate very well, so a quick accelerator may nail you on the way out if you haven't bugged out early enough of with enough separation.

[-ammo-]

My Opinion on the use of flaps, they are great for landing

Seriously, if I use flaps then I am ALREADY in trouble and I am attempting an overshoot or a reaching defletion shot. THEY USE UP SPEED AND CONSEQUENTLY ENERGY, the two ingredient you need in a P-47 to win the fight. Keep it fast.

[Lephturn]

Agreed, you want to stay fast and avoid using flaps if you can.  That implies engaging always with an E advantage, which is certainly the best plan when flying the Jug.  The problem is for various reasons, it doesn't work out that way all the time.  

When you are in a situation where you need to maneuver hard despite the loss of a bit of E, the flaps help.  This is particularly the case if you get bounced by a faster plane you can't escape from, in which case you will need to maneuver at lower speeds than you would like to if you are too low to dive.  For example, if I am being BnZ'ed by a higher Jug or for example an FW-190.  I'll try to keep my speed around 250 or so, and wait for his pass.  Then I'll use an evasive and try to get him to overshoot.  If he does something silly and tries to turn with me, the fact that I'm slower will let me win, but I'll want to turn quickly and set up for a shot with my better turn radius.  In some situations like that, even the Jug becomes the turnfighter, and that's when the flaps can really help.  If the BnZ pilot plays it smart he'll either work me down to the deck where I'll be forced to maneuver at low speed, or I'll whittle his E advantage away and then use my flaps to keep my nose up for the shot as he overshoots.

Ideally I'll always have more E and I'll never use my flaps.  In reality, I'll engage in a fight I shouldn't due to no e advantage, because I'm forced to or I just feel like it.       Those are the times I'll pull the flaps out, and many times I'll surprise my opponent.  You can use them, just be aware that you pay a price in terms of lost E.  In times where even the Jug becomes the turnfighter, the flaps are a big help.  To be honest though, one notch seems to be almost negligable in terms of extra drag at low speeds for short periods of time.  It's only at flap settings 2 or more and for extended periods of time that I've noticed any real degredation of my E state due to flaps.  I'm sure there is some penalty, but it usually something I can make up for with careful energy management.

The key is to be aware of the Energy trade-off of using flaps.  If you apply them properly, they'll help.  But, like anything else in air combat, if you employ them the wrong way, you'll get killed for it.  

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]

[Dmitry]

Ammo and Leph - thanks again for your help.....   <S> and i will most certanly give it a try.....

I wonder what Drex might say for a prefered model - D11, D25 or D30..

But now i do need some practice in it  

[Jigster]

They aren't giving the Jug enough credit in the turn department  

As long as the nose in down, in a continual downward spirial to maintain speed, all of the P-47s can stick with most of the turn fighters.

It's a very good defensive aircraft due to its ability to change direction quickly (through whatever means, in Drex's case, usually a well timed scissor move) while still maintaining some energy, making it easy for forcing an overshoot and then capitalizing. Granted this usually only works in a 1 on 1 situation  

[Dmitry]

Thank you very much again... That info you gave me helped a lot... I have that feeling that p47 will become my true passion...for sometime at least to say. I have tried it a few days ago and it didn't quite gave me results due to the different tactics I been using. My favorite ride before was actually any plane with speed and acceleration. So naturally i been flying La7 all the time, however that was also due to HUGE respect I have for that AC.

Yesterday I got myself Saitek36 combo and for now i am really disappointed in rudders. They don't work good to me as I am used to have a second stick for a rudder which gave me very precise control of rudders. This 2 fingers rocker switch is sucks as I have tried different settings of Dumping and dead band and sensitivities. At the very important moment my plane starts to swing the nose like crazy resulting stalling and losing advantage not to say missing lead i am sending on the enemy AC. That had forced me to pick a fight carefully and taught me more patience that I ever had before. Imidiatly i received better results.... however the rope and dope i might forget for a long wile. Still trying to set up rudders right but I think time will do... lots practice with dumb rudder controller.

Anyway IMO I am ready to face enemy in my jug   and i do like the p47 a lot  

Good thing if i could wing up with some other jug pilots for a few days at least. All my squad VF14 Ironangels have left AH for some time at least. I miss them but will not trade AH for anything..I just cant.

Are there any squads in Knitlandia that fly Jug's????

[mx22]

Originally posted by Dmitry:

Are there any squads in Knitlandia that fly Jug's????

Privet Dima,

I can fly Jug with you next time we meet in the arena, though it's been several tours since I flew it on regular basis.

mx22 (aka alexei)

[Dmitry]

Privet Alexey... That would be cool to fly with ya some jug missions... lookin forward to it!!!!!!!

[Lephturn]

If ya see me online, holler.  I fly Rook, but I'd be up for a Jug run in the DA or the TA.  

Also, we have LOTS of hot Jug pilots on the training staff.  Email me and I'll set you up with one for some 1 on 1 if you like.  

[Nifty]

rudder rocker on the saitek throttle???  don't have one of those on mine, it's a flap toggle (a la Ranger Bob's profile!)  Seriously, the rudder rocker is annoying as hell.  If you can afford it, buy some rudder pedals, they work wonders and are joys to have!    I have the CH Pro USB myself.