Reduce the 0.5 cal hitpower

[Westy MOL]

Actually. It will carry it's pilot home after being hit like that so HTC should actually make the P-47 invincible.  

 -Westy

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Spatula]

If anything needs toning down its the insta-one-ping-one-kill dweebspanos.

[Vragec09]

By SWulfe:
 
 "...Of course, 6x.50s will do a whole helluva lot more damage than 2x20mms with slow ROF unless you are up against a heavy bomber..."

 Well that depends on many factors. At least in RL. 6x12,67mm firing all at the same time will create a lot of dispersion in, for example, a P-51 wich was not very stable in the horizontal plane. So beside the guns itselfes the plane, altitude and some more factors affect how effective a gun will be   Right? Chk your six up there!

 Wulf

[Toad]

Deleted, wrong thread.

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[Tac]

One thing that some of you folks seem to forget is that most, if not all of ww2 gun cam kills you see are done in REALLY short range. 200 yards or less I think.

[DeeZCamp]

Is this how Aces does Damage?  

Young's Modulus is the STRESS of a material divided by it's STRAIN. That is how much the material YIELDS for each pound of load put on it.
Put another way, it is a measure of the STRENGTH of a material, and is commonly used to measure the strength of metals and other materials used in aircraft and weapons systems.

check out www.youngsmodulus.com

-Deez out..        

[Toad]

Yes indeed. The .50 BMG is nothing but a SISSY round!

Why, just look at this:
 http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a217fe42e10.htm  

When Campbell and I arrived at the secret range, it was drizzling slightly as we set the slabs of steel into a dirt bank (he'd also brought along a 15-inch-square piece of 2-inch hot-rolled steel that must have weighed 90 pounds), and we mounted his .50 on a shooting bench 100 yards away.

We fired the A.P. first, into each of the three targets, then walked up to examine the damage. The bullet had ripped through the sculptor's piece of three-quarter-inch steel as if it were cardboard. It did the same with the one-and-a-half-inch (cold) rolled steel, hitting it with such force that it blew the flanges of the hole back toward us, rather than out the other side. The (hot-rolled steel that must have weighed 90 pounds) two-inch plate, however, finally stopped it. The A.P. round blasted through to within a quarter-inch of the far side, where it caused a bump-out, but then flagged. The two-incher also stood up to the incendiary ammo, which made a hole with a dark burn mark, but couldn't get through."

So you see, it shouldn't even be really denting the 2" plate steel wing spars much beyond 100 yards.

 

[Jigster]

The Hispano only averages in at 20mm of  hardened steel.


38mm of rolled steel is probably an exaggeration, even at 100 yards.

[Toad]

Ah, don't trust the PRESS?  

OK, here, how about this one?
 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/50.htm

Its data is from the US Army field manual I think.

Shows WW2 era .50 M2 Ball (likely AP, as that was standard issue) ammo piercing 19 mm steel plate at 500 meters. That's .74 inches at 546 yards.  

So, I guess all the 3/4" steel wing spars are only safe out around 550 yards then?

It's a simply awesome round, IMO.

[Jigster]

Hmm might have to ask Mr. Williams.

That doesn't seem right, as that 19mm of penetration is EXACTLY what the Hispano is quoted for, same range. (vs armor anyway), from the Joint Fighter Conference thingamabob that has so often been used to prove why the 20mm Hispano is so lethal vs the .50.

Besides, they list it as ball ammunition, not AP on that sight! (scroll down to the penetration image) Sumpin tain't wight.

ballastically speaking however, the .50 cal round, as was the 7.92 German round, were aerodynamically perfect, or at least assumed, and showed up in various high speed flight projects  

[Hooligan]

Steel and armor plate are not the same thing.  Any AP round will penetrate a much greater thickness of "plain old steel" than armor plate.  The following link shows a little penetration information from a US ordnance manual.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50pen.htm

Hooligan

[Toad]

Hooligan, thanks! I've been looking around for that page, knew I had seen it somewhere.

Steel plate is indeed not armored steel plate. Armored is much tougher.

Just as the aluminum that made up a very large part of these aircraft is no way as tough as plain old steel plate. Even the "hard" (not armored) pieces of these aircraft, like an engine block, isn't as tough as 3/4" plain old steel plate.

That's all I'm pointing out.

[GRUNHERZ]

A few things you guys have to take note of regarding the .50 cal gun penetration numbers you give and its use in AH.

First of all do you know those numbers come from the long barreld higher velocity M2HB ground use gun. This weapon has a much longer barrel than the aircraft 50cal and thus achived much better muzzle velocity and penetration figures.

At what angles were the steel and armor plates placed during the firing test?

Was the test done using actual WW2 ammo and actual WW2 production guns. Postwar developments of the 50cal heavy MG and ammo increased its rof, muzzle velocity, and armour penetration.

A note regarding the effectiveness of weapon in AH must be made. In REAL LIFE the aircraft version could only be fired in short short bursts, otherwise the barrel lining would melt and the gubs would loose their accuracy. In orter words there was a penalty for spraying like we do in AH. One cant really argue this fact, and this does gives the AH .50cal some extra capability the real gun never had.


Now before all you proud defenders of the fatherland begin attacking my blasphemus post about the wholesome All-American, cheerleader dating, appple pie eating, quaterback of a Heavy MG, let me make a few points perfectly clear.

The .50 cal is probaly the best weapon along with the, M1911.45, MG42, AK47 and a few others made this century. The mere fact that it is still in use speaks to this effect.

I actually like gun.

And Im not trying to screw you guys or your enjoyment of the game, just pointing out a few realities of the gun and its capabilities in regard to WW2 use, postWW2 development, and use in AH.

Enjoy...

BTW I fully expect that idiot SW to not get my point, so I will save him some time and write his reply for him....
 

Grunherz %^#%@ is (*&(*^, how dare you &(**)@, lufwhiner $)*(*(),you %)(&*^^@, blah blah blah babble babble babble..

SW

[minus]

grunherz u damn right !!  hope it once in the next milenium will change in ah  

[Hooligan]

First of all do you know those numbers come from the long barreld higher velocity M2HB ground use gun. This weapon has a much longer barrel than the aircraft 50cal and thus achieved much better muzzle velocity and penetration figures.

The M2HB barrel was slightly longer giving the gun a muzzle velocity only about 3% better than the M2 (and thus negligibly better penetration).  Compare the WWII M2 and M2HB data from “The Machinegun”, Bureau of Ordnance, 1951, George Chinn

 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/pg335.jpg

Also here is some information from a 1946 firing table for the .50 M2.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50traj.htm

Note that the muzzle velocity for a new gun firing M8 AP/I rounds is 3045 ft/sec.  

 

At what angles were the steel and armor plates placed during the firing test?

It seems obvious to me that this is for 90 degree hits (i.e. the best possible angle for penetration).  If not, then the penetration would be even better.

 

Was the test done using actual WW2 ammo and actual WW2 production guns. Postwar developments of the 50cal heavy MG and ammo increased its rof, muzzle velocity, and armour penetration.

Rate of fire is not germane to the points under discussion.  The M2 gun, M8 and M2 rounds have been manufactured to the same specifications since WWII so I see no reason to expect any difference in performance.  Further developments such as SLAP rounds, the M3 gun etc... have different characteristics of course but we are not talking about these.  The pamphlet the penetration data comes from is a 60s publication and the velocity and penetration data matches WWII data from Geroge Chinn's "The Machinegun".

 

A note regarding the effectiveness of weapon in AH must be made. In REAL LIFE the aircraft version could only be fired in short short bursts, otherwise the barrel lining would melt and the gubs would loose their accuracy. In shorter words there was a penalty for spraying like we do in AH. One cant really argue this fact, and this does gives the AH .50cal some extra capability the real gun never had.

The implications here are absolutely wrong.  All aircraft guns would jam if fired too long but the .50 M2 was among the most reliable of all such guns.  Aces High does not model jamming, but in general .50 armed aircraft benefit far less from this than other aircraft (with the notable exception of  the P-51B).

Here are some quotes from "The Machinegun".  Vol 1, Page 338.  

 

Similar reports were received from the Army Air Forces Material Command during the last phase of the Tunisian campaign, where 72 enemy airplanes were destroyed with less than 200 rounds per gun expended on 35 fighter planes without a single machinegun stoppage.

 

One such observation was the report of Capt. Malcolm F. Schoeffel (now admiral) to the Bureau of Ordnance, Navy, which showed that during the cruise of the Saratoga some 200,000 rounds of caliber .50 ammunition were fired with only 2 serious jams, and two dozen stoppages of all types.  Captain Schoeffel declared that, although one of the purposes of his inspection trip in the Pacific was to locate troubles, he had difficulty finding them because of the high performance of the weapon.

Hooligan