Spitfire XIV .... ouch!

[DrSoya]

 

Originally posted by Torque:
Give me a hang-glider with a pellet gun I'll still engage.

LOL!  

DrSoya

[Karnak]

RAM,
Why do you have to make it so hard to join forces with you?

<shakes head slowly and sighs>

It doesn't have to be "Give the Luftwaffe the best and screw the rest".

I can just as easily be "Give everybody something and put them on an even chronological footing with the American stuff".

Please give it a shot.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Westy]

 Produced and "around" are two different things.

 It took time to form the squads at home, ship them out on troop ships and thier equipment in convoys as well as thier support and maintenance organisations. Then when they got over they had to set up operations as well. Not the case with the Axis at all or the RAF.
 Yes, the US planes were ALL in production and being deployed from early 42 into late 43 but most did not see service in Europe till late 43 and into 1944.
 
 Amazingly many folks (most often pro-LW) cannot seem to understand that "combat use" does not indicate when an aircraft is recognized as being deployed or in service.

 If folks want to get technical about it then the facts are the F4U is a 1938 design; the P-51 from 1940, the P-38 was 1939 and the P-47 harkens to 1940 (earlier if you count the Lancer and other designs it took form from).  They only changed engines to most along the way and added bubble tops to a couple of them. Maybe an armament config or two also here and there.

  -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-14-2000).]

[Jigster]

Somethin else kinda funny, alot of those P-38 vs LW arguments are based on the North Africa, Italy and Med. campaigns where they tangled the most in the early part of the war.

Kinda gets overshadowed by the bombing campaigns. No wonder those P-38 boys had hell. They were fighting a mix of the nimbler 109's and the FW's, and the surfacing of the heavier armed ones with most seasoned axis pilots around, AND with all the faults of the earlier 38s. Not to mention the LW tended to outnumber them till Mid '43  

- Jig

(the 39 thread reminded me of the Devilhawks and Earl's 38 flight time plus that stuff on the 82nd Fighter Group in one of the recent Aviation History mags)

[Karnak]

Westy,

OK then.  I'd like my 1936 Spitfire F.MkXIV.

Sisu
-Karnak

[F4UDOA]

It's funny how people forget the reason the P-51H, P-47M/N, F4U-4, F2G, F8F, P-59, P-80 didn't see combat is because...

The Allies won the war so easily without them. Are we forgetting that Germany never saw the B-29 or A-Bomb because there was no need for it after D-Day. That there were almost no enemy aircraft at the Normandy invasion. Do you realize that the mighty Tirpitz was put on the bottom of the cold Norwegian waters by a Lancasters and Fairy Swordfish in broad daylight with not one Luftwaffa fighter to defend it. There were F4U-1's and F6F-3's there do fly escort but these 1944 uber planes were no where to be found. Why? Because the 1943 P-51B/C, P-38J's and P-47C/D's cleaned them out of the sky. I know the Spit's and Hurricanes won the Battle of Britain but they had virtually nothing to do with the offensive strike over the channel against Germany.

So lets not get crazy and forget why we are all here having this conversation.

Reality Check  

Later
F4UDOA

[funked]

P-47M/N and F4U-4 DID see combat.
In fact P-47N probably flew more sorties than Me 262, Fw 190D-9, and Ta 152 combined.  

[gatt]

Ok, we all agree then, 1944 irons against 1944 irons ... right?

No, there is a difference ... lets see ... uhmmm ... some 1944's come one year later than "some" other 1944's ... no, impossible! Lets see again .... oh dear ... help!  

[gatt]

Westy ... what was on the drawing boards during 1944? The F-86? Following your reasoning we should have Korean age a/c buzzing around.

I'm obviously joking, just to underline that our plane set uses double standards. And it is not only the Axis suffering from it. Lets keep this thread polite plz.


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Tony Williams]

If you're interested in armament, there's an analysis of the Spit v 109 and 190 at:
 http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages

Tony Williams
New book: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm

[gatt]

Got it   Thx again for the Breda-SAFAT HE shell picture you sent me.

[juzz]

No P-51B until 1944 eh? Not quite.

 

The first combat unit equipped with Merlin-powered Mustangs was the 354th Fighter Group, which reached England in October of 1943. The 354th FG consisted of the 353rd, 355th and 356th Fighter Squadrons, and was part of the 9th Air Force which had the responsibility of air-to-ground attacks in support of the upcoming invasion of Europe. However, they were immediately ordered to support the bomber operations of the 8th Air Force. The 354th flew their first cross-Channel sweep mission on December 1, 1943, and scored their first victory on a mission to Bremen on December 16. However, inexperienced pilots and ground crews and numerous technical problems limited operations with the P-51B/C until about eight weeks into 1944. From the early spring of 1944, the Merlin-powered Mustang became an important fighter in the ETO.

Now I suppose you will argue it wasn't present in large numbers until '44? We all know how that applies to certain LW a/c too...  

As for US designs being from earlier than 1944...

P-51D = P-51B: late '43
P-38L = P-38J-25: early '44
P-47D-25 = P-47D with paddle prop: ??? - I'd guess sometime in 1944 for sure.
F4U-1D = F4U-1A: early '43 - but when did they have the -8W installed?

So saying any 1944 US plane was actually a 1942 a/c is pretty much a total lie, and even 1943 is kinda stretching it, except for the Corsair...

PS: British fighters are the best! Spitfire 21, Tempest II, prototypes like M.B.5, Fury, Spiteful...  

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Westy]

"Westy ... what was on the drawing boards during 1944? The F-86? Following your reasoning we should have Korean age a/c buzzing around."

 That's right. In 1944 the US had the P-80 and a few other jets in development and by early 45 these aircraft were in production. And don't forget all the many aircraft that the US  was cancelled for production ( a luxury the LW did not have in 1944-45) because they were deemed not needed as the Allies knew they could win the war with existing models or that these new aircrat would be obsolete in the Jet age.  There was the P-82 twin Mustang, P-47M, P-47N, F8F, F7F, F2G,  How about bombers that the LW could only dream of developing? The B-36, the B-35 (Gotha copied the Northrop flying wing! (obligatory tease) the B-42 Mixmaster. (the Do-335 was a rip off of this US bomber!)
 And the RAF has some outstanding planes in production too.

 Yes. In 1944 and 1945 the planes for Korea were being made and deployed.

And Juzz. You missed my point or chose to ignore it. You are quoting WHEN  the planes entered the combat zone in Europe.  NOT when they started to be produced and deployed. BIG difference.  

  -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-15-2000).]

[gatt]

Westy, nothing personal in my replies, this thread is very interesting .... but, are you saying that introducing FW190D-9, Spitfires XIV and La-7 should automatically bring P-51H, P-47N, F4U-4 or F8F into the arena?

Or, in other words, you would "perk" all the above planes, leaving Luftwaffe, RAF and Russian with such big holes in their plane sets?

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-15-2000).]

[juzz]

OK, have it your way...

First flight of production model P-51B: May '43.
First flights of the P-47D with paddle prop and P-38J-25 are both certainly later than that, sometime in 1944.

The first F4U-1 is delivered to the USN on the last day of July, 1942. By August the USN has a massive 11 Corsairs. From the 1550th a/c they had the -8W engine of 2250HP fitted. That plane would have flown sometime in early-mid 1943 I figure.

In the meantime in 1943 you also have flying production models of the Ki-84-I, N1K1-J, Spitfire XIV, Tempest V...