Aircraft and Vehicle Service Dates - get ur pencils out

[Krusty]

"A version of the spit1 and hurr1 were operational on those dates, maybe."

My word, don't you split hairs? They were operational on those dates, no doubt about it. I've used secondary information because I can't spare the time to visit Hendon to obtain primary data just to satisfy those who don't like to admit that the RAF had to hold the line for democracy until December 1941.

    

My, how uppity.

You totally missed my point.

The question isn't "When did a plane start service" it's "when did the plane we have in AH start service" -- meaning our specific variant. We don't have the first production models of the Hurr1 and the Spit1. We have the later performances, typical of late 1940, NOT of late 1938.

[Guppy35]

All 4 P51's are of different model thats why the photo was taken. I cant recall exactily why they did this but im 100% positive they are all different. the end one is a P51B you have a P51D and P-51K and i cant tell what the other one is. I can tell you the flight was stricktly to take this photo though. but it was during the war at least.

Before you guys get too carried away on the 51s.

The photo is 3 51Ds and a B Pony.  It is from a photo op flight but they are all combat birds.  The 51D with the Fillet is obviously the newest bird, but the Group Commander is in the lead D-5 without the fillet.  There is no 51K in that photo.

This image is from November 44 and shows the 359th FG on the return from an escort.  Note the D models and the B/C models.  Both with added fin fillets, and one with a Malcom hood and one without.  B/Cs were in combat until the end in the ETO.  No rocket rails in the ETO or MTO for USAAF Mustangs.  They did get used a bit by the Iwo Jima Mustangs in the summer of 45.

All you can hope for is rough dates too as it depends on theater as well.  You had P38Gs still in combat until at least May 44 in the MTO.  Replacement 38 pilots who had trained on J models in the States were surprised to go into combat in earlier, less capable models of the 38 then they'd trained on.  The MTO also got 38Hs from the ETO.  In the ETO you can find early J models still in combat at the end alongside the latest power assisted control L models.



Just watch the Spit and 109 guys get going if you start getting too picky about which variants were in combat when too.  There were many variants of the Spitfire Vb for example.  The game has only one and it's the earliest and least capable.  The 109G guys could tell you all about them too

[Guppy35]

Sherman Firefly entered service in April-May 44 just prior to D-Day.  200 were in service on D-Day with total production totalling 2139 coversions by the end of the war.  Source is "Sherman Firefly" by Mark Hayword.

[thorsim]

same situation in WB, and was very problematic event/RPS wise as there is always hard feelings when you point out that the p51 modeled in the game is a model that post dates the dora and 262 by some six months ...

Before you guys get too carried away on the 51s.

The photo is 3 51Ds and a B Pony.  It is from a photo op flight but they are all combat birds.  The 51D with the Fillet is obviously the newest bird, but the Group Commander is in the lead D-5 without the fillet.  There is no 51K in that photo.

This image is from November 44 and shows the 359th FG on the return from an escort.  Note the D models and the B/C models.  Both with added fin fillets, and one with a Malcom hood and one without.  B/Cs were in combat until the end in the ETO.  No rocket rails in the ETO or MTO for USAAF Mustangs.  They did get used a bit by the Iwo Jima Mustangs in the summer of 45.

All you can hope for is rough dates too as it depends on theater as well.  You had P38Gs still in combat until at least May 44 in the MTO.  Replacement 38 pilots who had trained on J models in the States were surprised to go into combat in earlier, less capable models of the 38 then they'd trained on.  The MTO also got 38Hs from the ETO.  In the ETO you can find early J models still in combat at the end alongside the latest power assisted control L models.

(Image removed from quote.)

Just watch the Spit and 109 guys get going if you start getting too picky about which variants were in combat when too.  There were many variants of the Spitfire Vb for example.  The game has only one and it's the earliest and least capable.  The 109G guys could tell you all about them too

[csThor]

Re: Fw 190 D-9

The first unit to receive them was III./JG 54 with 18 aircraft delivered in mid-September 1944. Reequipment continued into October when two Staffeln were assigned to the jet airfields of Achmer and Hesepe as direct fighter cover. (Urbanke, "First in Combat with Dora-9")

Re: Flakpanzer IV "Wirbelwind"

Prototype was built by SS-Panzerregiment 12 at the beginning of 1944. The first factory-produced Wirbelwinds came from Ostbau-Sagan in July 1944 and until the factory was overrun by the Red Army in February 1945 between 85 and 122 Panzer IV were converted into Wirbelwinds there (according to report of Heereswaffenamt).

[Kev367th]

Re: Fw 190 D-9

The first unit to receive them was III./JG 54 with 18 aircraft delivered in mid-September 1944. Reequipment continued into October when two Staffeln were assigned to the jet airfields of Achmer and Hesepe as direct fighter cover. (Urbanke, "First in Combat with Dora-9")

Re: Flakpanzer IV "Wirbelwind"

Prototype was built by SS-Panzerregiment 12 at the beginning of 1944. The first factory-produced Wirbelwinds came from Ostbau-Sagan in July 1944 and until the factory was overrun by the Red Army in February 1945 between 85 and 122 Panzer IV were converted into Wirbelwinds there (according to report of Heereswaffenamt).

The Dora at the boost level in-game was ready for deployment the end of Dec 1944. It surely follows it couldn't actually be in the field until Jan 45 at the earliest?
Been pointed out numerous times.

[thorsim]

and the p51 with available rockets on flush hard points ?

what is the understood service date for that FM ?

[Guppy35]

and the p51 with available rockets on flush hard points ?

what is the understood service date for that FM ?

Performance of the 51 didn't change.  The rocket rail equipped 51s appear to have first been used in May 45.  I've yet to find any photo evidence of them in the ETO or MTO, just the Iwo Jima Mustangs. There were  RAF Mustangs in the MTO with rocket rails similar to the Typhoon earlier then that obviously and they did carry the bazooka rocket tubes earlier as well.

[csThor]

The Dora at the boost level in-game was ready for deployment the end of Dec 1944. It surely follows it couldn't actually be in the field until Jan 45 at the earliest?
Been pointed out numerous times.

Impossible to tell. It is known, however, that at least JG 2 and JG 26 received a full load of new Doras in December 1944 and went to support "Wacht am Rhein" with them. So it's one of several possibilities.

[thorsim]

it's performance did change at least in the sense that it can carry the rockets without a speed penalty after they are fired, unlike most other FMs, also performance change is not a criteria for this discussion.
 
it is somewhat "shifty" to deploy a may 1945 aircraft as if it came out in fall 43 or fall winter 43/44 ...

this is hard to sort out, but we should seek equity.  however you look at it the ponyD 25 block in game should either be considered a may 1945 plane, or all earliest FMs of a type should be made available when the first models of that type were introduced for fairness sake meaning the 190A5 gets used as if it were the first 190A date wise.

same with any other first FM of a type ...

i wish i could find out why Green thinks jg3 had the d9 in winter 43/44 though, that has bugged me for years.  

Performance of the 51 didn't change.  The rocket rail equipped 51s appear to have first been used in May 45.  I've yet to find any photo evidence of them in the ETO or MTO, just the Iwo Jima Mustangs. There were  RAF Mustangs in the MTO with rocket rails similar to the Typhoon earlier then that obviously and they did carry the bazooka rocket tubes earlier as well.

Bookie has an order of battle showing jg2 with d9s in sept 44

Impossible to tell. It is known, however, that at least JG 2 and JG 26 received a full load of new Doras in December 1944 and went to support "Wacht am Rhein" with them. So it's one of several possibilities.

[csThor]

According to www.ww2.dk (and, IIRC, Urbanke) the very first D-9 of JG 2 came to the Geschwaderstab in November 1944. I. and III. Gruppe received a full compliment in December (see Flugzeugbestands- und -bewegungsmeldungen at the bottom of the JG 2-specific page there).

[Guppy35]

it's performance did change at least in the sense that it can carry the rockets without a speed penalty after they are fired, unlike most other FMs, also performance change is not a criteria for this discussion.
 
it is somewhat "shifty" to deploy a may 1945 aircraft as if it came out in fall 43 or fall winter 43/44 ...

this is hard to sort out, but we should seek equity.  however you look at it the ponyD 25 block in game should either be considered a may 1945 plane, or all earliest FMs of a type should be made available when the first models of that type were introduced for fairness sake meaning the 190A5 gets used as if it were the first 190A date wise.

same with any other first FM of a type ...

i wish i could find out why Green thinks jg3 had the d9 in winter 43/44 though, that has bugged me for years.  

Bookie has an order of battle showing jg2 with d9s in sept 44

Clearly Allied intel knew of the D9 coming and the word had spread as there are Allied combat reports claiming to have run into long nosed 190s in early 44 and through the summer of 44.  I seem to recall that Green corrected that claim at some point.

As for the 51D.  Short of the rocket rails, the d-25 performed like the earlier D models.  Outside of modeling every detail on the 51s starting with the First 51B models without fuselage fuel tanks, to the next with fuselage tanks, to adding the malcom hood, then the fin fillet, then the D-5 Mustang with no fin fillet, then a retrofitted D-5 with the fillet, D10, D15, D20 etc.  It seems to me the D model in game allows for the widest variety of use without modeling every little bit independently and adding that many more planes.

[kilo2]

The first i-16 was produced in 1934

[MiloMorai]

Clearly Allied intel knew of the D9 coming and the word had spread as there are Allied combat reports claiming to have run into long nosed 190s in early 44 and through the summer of 44.  I seem to recall that Green corrected that claim at some point.

To bad he didn't correct the 109 having MG151 cowl cannons.

[Brooke]

From America's Hundred Thousand by Dean.

P-39Q was first delivered in May, 1943.  I don't see any data on date of first combat.

P-47M was first delivered December, 1944.  The 56th Fighter Group gets its first P-47M on January 3, 1945.

B-239 was first delivered January, 1940.  The B-239 first arrives in Finland in April, 1940 and enters service supposedly quickly.