190 A/F engine dammage Test

[Wilbus]

I and Mandoble met in the Training arena and started testing, started with 190 F8 and then went on to the A8.

We spent pretty much time in there, took some time to figure out where to hit and took some time to learn how to aim good. Quite hard with the dispersion to get accurate shots where you want them.

Mandoble did most of the Shooting while I was a target.

Link to the films bellow.
 http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/films.zip  

My conclusions is, that when the enigine gets a hit, especially from slightly bellow, slightly above or side/slightly from the side, it dies right away. Radiator hit and Oil leak doesn't exist in these planes, A5, A8 and F8.

This is something that needs to be fixed fast, I know I am not the only one gettign tired of having my enigne quit after a single hit early in a fight or furrball. Most of my deaths in teh A8 are due to this  

Big Thanks to Mandoble for taking the time to put the films on his Homepage  

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Wilbus ]

[MANDOBLE]

Thanks to you Wilbus for your patience. I agree, direct small cal (50') hits in engine stop it inmediately. Aside that, two "flashes" at the wing root of 190F8 (firing only with P38s 50', HO) broke the 190 wing entirely.

[Pyro]

Thanks for the test guys.  So you're stating that you could only knock out the engine but you'll never get an oil leak?

[MANDOBLE]

Neg Pyro, but oil leaks are really rare, most of the times engine stopped with no smoke at first ping (I dont know how many bullets represents a "ping"). The test was really hard to do due dispersion, and the objetive was to put the minimun amount of lead at or near engine, so we need to wait to the last sec to fire. We know this test is not statistically significative, but, at least, is representative of what I experience day after day, mostly in jabo.

I have no films, but a typical jabo mission in 190F8 is as follows.
I enter the ack zone fast and kill 3 or 4 acks, then a ping, engine stopped but still fast, flat turn and deack most of the rest. Usually the VH ack survives and once slowed it keeps hitting me, 1 to 3 pings more and tail out while trying to flee engineless.

[Hooligan]

<S> guys.  It sure is nice to see people trying to provide this kind of proof for issues with the game.

Hooligan

[Wilbus]

Well, Oil leaks do acure, but I don't remeber last time it happened to me, it was a VERY long time ago. It allways seam to stop with just a ping and no engine leak or anything.

So oil leaks and radiator leaks are very VERY rare (atleast for me)and it seams allmost as if it never happens.

[Naudet]

Aside that, two "flashes" at the wing root of 190F8 (firing only with P38s 50', HO) broke the 190 wing entirely.

and they say the 0.5 cal aint overpowered LMAO

[ra]

A more usefull test may be to fly a 190 along side a buff and have the buff fire 1 gun at different ranges at different parts of the 190.  This way it would be easier to tell how many rounds it took to do a certain amount of damage.  A Ju-88 could be used to test single 30cals, B-26 or B-17 for single 50cals.

ra

[ispar]

Originally posted by Naudet:


and they say the 0.5 cal aint overpowered LMAO

It may be that the wing is underpowered. Do some testing with both .50 cal and 12.7 mm MGs and compare the results before making such an assertion, please. After all, people complain about the ballistics of the hispano round all the time, but those who do are generally incorrect when they assert that it's too good.

[MANDOBLE]

Yesterday, my cursed 190F8 stopped again. First flight and while RTB I saw a 190 hi at my 5, d4 and aproaching very fast. Leveled, WEP on and accelerated a bit, the other 190 was near d2 and closing fast. Then I started a gentle slow rolling scissors that the other 190 could not follow due the extra speed. But the enemy, before overpassing risk a snapshot. I heard a single ping, but could have been more. Looking at the pos of the other 190, the impact/s were only viable in the rear quarter or below my plane. The ping I heard was "light", small cal (probably 13mm). LOL Engine stopped!!! No other damage and I managed to ditch. The adversary was Hajo, and he was as surprised as my, or even more. He saw hits in the rear upper quarted of my plane, just between tail and cockpit.
Waiting for Hajo to confirm if he used MGs + Guns, Guns or only MGs.

Next flight, 190D9. After some combat I was enganged with a F6F fighting in the vertical. I saw him slow at d1.1 and was about to drop the nose for the kill, then, PING, engine stopped, PING, pilot dead.

Next flight was at my bed, dreaming with a "non-paper" 190 and totally pissedoff.

[Wilbus]

Do some testing with both .50 cal and 12.7 mm MGs and compare the results before making such an assertion, please.

Well, 0.50 cal and 12.7mm is the same caliber.
0.5 = Half an inch, half an inch = 12.7mm.
The german Heavy MG's are 13mm (0.51inch) and the difference isn't all that big so to compare wether it takes 3 50 cal hits or 2 13mm hits isn't so necessary.
The German 13mm IS better but not very much, it's the best MG in the game.

The wing went off after just a few 50 cal hits and that's what's important.

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Wilbus ]

[Toad]

Picture previously posted by Pyro.

   

Visual Aid. Left to right: .30-06 US, .303 British, 12.7mm Russian, .50 Cal US, 13mm MG 131, 15mm MG 151, 20mm MG 151/20, 20mm Hispano, 23mm VYa, 30mm MK 108, 30mm MK 103, 37mm BK 37.

From: http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002456
******************************************

With apologies to Crocidile Dundee's writers:

Sue: "Mick, give him your wing spar."
Mick: "What for?"
Sue: "He's got a .50 cal."
Mick (brandishing his own .50): "That's not a .50 cal. (See 13mm MG131 above) This is a .50 cal. (See .50cal US above)".

There's more to ballistics than bullet diameter alone.

I'm certainly not saying that there isn't something amiss in damage modeling.

I'm just saying all .50 cal rounds are not created equal.

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[Wilbus]

Yup, although lenght of the round doesn't make that much difference unless it's packed with explosives, gives some extra weight a maybe a slighly heavier punch. Think the MG131 is better in AH, maybe no noticble difference.

Just wanted to say that 50 cal = 12.7mm  

Btw Toad, nice picture, don't know where ya got it from but very nice  

[Toad]

Pyro posted that in the old thread that is listed below picture.

Trajectory and energy are essentially determined by velocity and ballistic coefficient of the projectile.

The longer case usually allows more powder,  increasing velocity.

The bullet design determines the coefficient, so it is a predetermined factor set by the manufacturer.

This is an oversimplification but the heart of a good round is high velocity and an excellent BC. I think you'll find the .50 BMG is indeed a "good round".

[DmdNexus]

Here is another way to test, and is perhaps more accurate to hitting specific sections of the plane.

Launch a 190 and a M3, LVT or Tank.

Don't fly, just start the engine and leave it idle.

Have the GV fire at the prop from various angles off - at about 50 to 100 yards.

This can also be used to see if the engine dies when shooting at the tail, or if the wing falls off with just a few rounds.

If any one wants to test this - I'd be happy to assist in the TA.

Nexus