Author Topic: Why attack the Tirpitz?  (Read 4469 times)

Offline B3YT

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2010, 02:22:40 AM »
sending in a big strike force is difficult in the North Atlantic.  Norwegian fjords were heavily protected by mines , U Boats and naval batteries.  best way to attack would have been   heavy bombing by the RAF and Coastal command. If she had been allowed to get up a head of steam the tirpitz  could extend on destroyers and corvettes quite quickly  ( her main sea going threat) . If let out into the North Atlantic she could hide for months at a time as there would be no obvious destination for her . the Pacific on the other hand though bigger has strategic locations where you can look for enemy shipping.  
   While at sea she would also be under protection from the wolf pack . This meant that even if found surface forces would have to  counter the U boat threat before giving chase . Once again allowing her to build steam and escape. This was not the case in the Pacific  for the Americans as the IJN had a small U boat force compared to Germany's . The two theatres were two different styles of war.
   The safest and least costly to lives was aerial bombardment . Least costly because even though many crews were lost it would total less than the possible number of   seamen , merchant marines , troops in troop carriers , tonnage of supplies , and therefore possible deaths of other service men due to lack of required items and materials being shipped in from  the US . It would also have slowed down the supplies to the USSR (which were slow to start with) .  
      I think i may have set the case for the "acceptable losses " encountered for the destruction of the Tirpits.
Thank you
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 02:25:14 AM by B3YT »
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Offline The Grinch

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 02:46:21 AM »
Folks,

I was looking through the info at the "Allied and Luftwaffe wrecksites in Norway" thread Grinch posted. I noticed all the RAF aircraft lost attacking the Tirpitz. Why was the RAF so keen to sink her (and take those losses)? She wasn't going anywhere was she? And the RAF kept such close watch on her, she couldn't have raised steam without setting off alarms. Seems like a waste of lives going after her.

63tb
The Tirpitz was a huge threat to the allied fleet, and a symbol to Hitler him self. They just had sink to her.
And, in Narvik the Germans needed Ore to make weapon's in Germany. And Tirpitz had to protect those supplyboats.
Allied forces needed to stop that line of supply at all cost. Tirptz had to bee sunk.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 03:59:00 AM by The Grinch »

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2010, 09:00:05 AM »
sending in a big strike force is difficult in the North Atlantic.  Norwegian fjords were heavily protected by mines , U Boats and naval batteries.  best way to attack would have been   heavy bombing by the RAF and Coastal command. If she had been allowed to get up a head of steam the tirpitz  could extend on destroyers and corvettes quite quickly  ( her main sea going threat) . If let out into the North Atlantic she could hide for months at a time as there would be no obvious destination for her . the Pacific on the other hand though bigger has strategic locations where you can look for enemy shipping.  
   While at sea she would also be under protection from the wolf pack . This meant that even if found surface forces would have to  counter the U boat threat before giving chase . Once again allowing her to build steam and escape. This was not the case in the Pacific  for the Americans as the IJN had a small U boat force compared to Germany's . The two theatres were two different styles of war.
   The safest and least costly to lives was aerial bombardment . Least costly because even though many crews were lost it would total less than the possible number of   seamen , merchant marines , troops in troop carriers , tonnage of supplies , and therefore possible deaths of other service men due to lack of required items and materials being shipped in from  the US . It would also have slowed down the supplies to the USSR (which were slow to start with) .  
      I think i may have set the case for the "acceptable losses " encountered for the destruction of the Tirpits.
Thank you

I think you lay out a reasonable argument here.

The wikipedia article on the Tirpitz says that it was damaged and rendered unseaworthy almost a month before it was actually sunk, but the RAF did not know it.  Is this true?
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Offline The Grinch

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« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 09:46:52 AM by The Grinch »

Offline 63tb

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2010, 10:09:27 AM »
Thanks for the info. I guess from what you say the cost in lives was worth it. I also noticed that most of the attacks on Tirpitz were from level bombers. Did the RAF have any dive bombers similar to the USN Dauntless? If so wouldn't they have been more effective? Or were level bombers needed to stay above most of the aaa?

63tb

Offline macleod01

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2010, 10:21:11 AM »
Thanks for the info. I guess from what you say the cost in lives was worth it. I also noticed that most of the attacks on Tirpitz were from level bombers. Did the RAF have any dive bombers similar to the USN Dauntless? If so wouldn't they have been more effective? Or were level bombers needed to stay above most of the aaa?

63tb

I believe it was tried, but her top armour was too thick to be pierced by the limited bombload of Divebombers. Hence why they needed the Lancaster with the Tall Boy. It was the only bomb capable of piercing the armour and sinking the Tirpitz. Though any details I'm wrong on, I'm sure I'll be corrected soon enough  :D
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2010, 02:11:56 PM »
Exactly   :aok

Remember just how close Bismark and Prince Eugen came to making it into the open waters of the North Atlantic undetected. Tirpitz could have done the same, especially during the winter with a little friendly (atrocious) weather. Those considerable forces Lusche mentioned could have done one of three things:

1) They could be held at the ready in case the Tirpitz sailed (essentially negated by her very existence)

2) They could engage her after she sailed (and run the very real risk of being negated by her for real; along with a lot of merchant ships)

3) Or, knowing exactly where she was, they could just preemptively sink her and be rid of the problem.

Besides, it gave the RAF a great opportunity to play with Wallis' nasty bombs.


Considering what the loss of HMS Hood meant to the RN, and to all Brits in general, it's also probably safe to say that the mere existence of Tirpitz was an affront to British moral, so she had to go. Regardless of military significance.


 


The Bismarck did make it to open sea.

Offline B3YT

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2010, 02:47:28 PM »
I believe it was tried, but her top armour was too thick to be pierced by the limited bombload of Divebombers. Hence why they needed the Lancaster with the Tall Boy. It was the only bomb capable of piercing the armour and sinking the Tirpitz. Though any details I'm wrong on, I'm sure I'll be corrected soon enough  :D

you are right . only the tall boy could penetrate. even a cookie dropped by a mossie would have only done superficial damage .The tall boy had a shape and weight that could pierce the top armour.  Also the shape of the Fjords plays into the hands of the Germans . You would only be able to attack from one of two directions and egress the in one direction ; straight through the AAA on either side of the run . When dive bombers attack they stay low for quite a while this means in range of light (if you can call it that ) flack .   
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Offline The Grinch

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2010, 02:26:27 AM »
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but didn't the Bismark sneak out unnoticed, despite all of the recons over her. I think they needed her sunk to be certain. While she was still on the surface, she was a threat. If she managed to sneak out, she could have caused serious damage to the Atlantic and Arctic convoys. How do you prevent that happening? Make darn sure she can't. So you sink her.
Bismarck was Hitler's trump card nr 1. With its groundbreaking technique and violent weapons power challenged the Bismarck the British Navy's control of the Atlantic. The ship was spotted by Norwegian resistance fighters who once reported to London. The British initiated a pat hunting unparalleled in which 42 vessels and several aircraft participated.

Offline Rino

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2010, 04:06:16 AM »
     No ship ever made "required" a tall boy sized bomb to get through it's armor.
Even the Yamato/Musashi class which were considerably larger than Tirpitz were
damaged/sunk by smaller carrier aircraft.  Admittedly they used torpedos as well,
but many many bombs.
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Offline macleod01

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2010, 08:46:17 AM »
     No ship ever made "required" a tall boy sized bomb to get through it's armor.
Even the Yamato/Musashi class which were considerably larger than Tirpitz were
damaged/sunk by smaller carrier aircraft.  Admittedly they used torpedos as well,
but many many bombs.

I faithfully disagree. Every source I have read has said that daue to the Tirpitzs double armour on the top, regular bombs were ineffective. Hence the tallboy
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Offline B3YT

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2010, 03:30:14 PM »
Size of ship is not the issue but the form of the armour.  It was the shape and pure mass of the tall boy that destroyed the tirpitz not the amount of explosive.  The Tirpitz was designed to take a pounding from 16inch navel shells that would land from a vertical or near vertical angle ; therefore it had a double skin both of which were thicker than that of any other navel vessel at that time plus a slight  downward dihedral to to amour on the decks. Think of it as a bastard child of a tiger tank and the Bismark. Even torps would not have put a scratch on it's armour.   
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Offline Fencer51

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2010, 09:59:42 PM »
The sister of the Tripitz and Bismark was destined to become even more infamous than her sisters..

(this is called Scenario forshadowing  ;))
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Offline Serenity

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 02:24:58 AM »
The sister of the Tripitz and Bismark was destined to become even more infamous than her sisters..

(this is called Scenario forshadowing  ;))

If only we had the model to make it epic...

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Why attack the Tirpitz?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 12:47:46 PM »

 


The Bismarck did make it to open sea.

Undetected? The period "." typically means the sentence you're reading stops here -> "." , not before.


I faithfully disagree. Every source I have read has said that daue to the Tirpitzs double armour on the top, regular bombs were ineffective. Hence the tallboy
A regular AP aerial bomb from a Barracuda nearly killed the Tirpitz during the Goodwood III raid. Even the German's admitted that faulty fusing saved their butts.

Size of ship is not the issue but the form of the armour.  It was the shape and pure mass of the tall boy that destroyed the tirpitz not the amount of explosive.  The Tirpitz was designed to take a pounding from 16inch navel shells that would land from a vertical or near vertical angle ; therefore it had a double skin both of which were thicker than that of any other navel vessel at that time plus a slight  downward dihedral to to amour on the decks. Think of it as a bastard child of a tiger tank and the Bismark. Even torps would not have put a scratch on it's armour.   

Agreed. You're talking about sectional density.  All effective kinetic penetrators share this design trait. Remember that Tallboy was designed to penetrate the submarine pens, then wreak havoc with delayed fusing. This made it perfect for killing a battleship, provided it was stationary.
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