explain this

[F4UDOA]

Citabria,

How did you do your testing?

I just did 100% fuel and ammo auto level and waited for it to depart.

It went at 100MPH power on and very slightly less with flaps. Not good, but closer than what you got.

What are you estimating a for the weight of a fully loaded P-38?

What's POH?

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 12-19-2000).]

[Citabria]

the stalls above are at 1g and 3g and the conditions are given for each: ie power on/off, flap settings etc.

pilots operating handbook = POH


watch the accelerometer... hold 1g, once it drops below 1 g the plane has stalled and you are about to spin (this is the only noticeable transition between stall and spin in level stalls in Aces High)

normal loaded p38 (max internal fuel and small 50cal ammo load) weighs about 19,000lbs

the level power off stall speed difference is annoying.

what really bothers me is the accelerated stall that is an instant spin.

with the 1.03 p-38 this wasn't so terrible but now its downright rediculous in 1.04

it totally ruins the p-38s high speed turn ability and makes it very dangerous to turn in.


   

The 38 was an interceptor and with both engines, you always knew you could outclimb any other airplane, and that's what wins dog fights. When you are in a dog fight below tree tops, It is way more comfortable in a 38 with its power and stall characteristics and, for that matter at any altitude. -Art Heiden p38 pilot ETO

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-19-2000).]

[F4UDOA]

Citabria,

1. I don't have enough information on the P-38 accelerated stall to give an opinion either way. However in straight ahead stalls it does seem very unusual that the 38 departs onto the right wing as it does.

2. I would really try to get the weight the P-38L in AH is modeled verified when loaded with full fuel and Ammo. Then measure stall characteristics as far as 1G and 3G stalls.
So far from the pilots manual I believe that weight to be 19,400LBS. However from America's Hundred Thousand it looks to be only 17,600LBS. It makes a huge difference in performance weather that extra 2,000lbs is coming from an external drop tank or internal fuel. If it is 17,600LBS then the Loaded P-38L stall with flaps need to be lowered considerably. If it is 19,600LBS then the Military power rate of climb is way to high in AH. It is listed as being 2600FPM at Mil power at 19,600lbs in the manual.

3. You mentioned that you thought the F4U FM was switched with the P-38FM. Well try your test on the F4U-1D which should stall with 50% fuel at 11,300lbs at 96MPH and 76MPH full flap. It is like the P-38L close to 100MPH in a 1G no flap stall and Just under 100MPH in a full flap stall. The moral of the story is that flaps in AH do not provide enough lift in ANY FM. This was supposed to be fixed in 1.04. Oh well, I wouldn't even bother complaining until 1.05 is out and debugged.

Later
Good luck
F4UDOA

[F4UDOA]

Citabria,

A quick note. Look at Badboy's chart of Aces High performance of the F4U-1C and P-51D in AH. Notice 25% fuel. The F4U-1D/C carries 1422lbs of fuel fully loaded and weights 12,000lbs(About 50lbs less actually). Anyway with 25% fuel the F4U should weight 10,933LBS. According to the chart in the back of the F4U manual (The P-38 doesn't have one) that shows weight changes affecting climb, stall and range. The F4U should stall at 74knots or 85MPH power off!!
Thats significantly lower than about 101MPH where Badboy's chart clearly indicates.

Also it should climb to 20,000FT in just over 7min in military power. I won't even get into that one.

F4UDOA

[SKurj]

 

Originally posted by Hooligan:
Skurj:

Concerning braces and visibility:

Real pilots have binocular vision.  Often when view of an object might be blocked for one eye, the other eye would still be tracking it.  Compared to what a real pilot had to do to keep something in view, moving one's head in AH is very cumbersome indeed IMO.  Real pilots didn't have to shuffle hats around and push arrow keys etc... to keep tracking a target.  What they did in terms of moving their eyes and head was simple and intuitive.  Unfortunately in this area I believe that we suffer from unrealistically difficult problems in AH that the real pilots did not suffer from.  And it is worse in aircraft with lots of canopy framing like the P-38 or C-205.

Hooligan

Hooligan... look right press pgup key hit F10, Look left hit pgup key hit F10 and repeat
No more brace probs

AKskurj

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:
Face it... the Hog was one of, if not the best, fighter of the war.

Agree, and as the best fighter of the war it MUST be perked.

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Mav,

Hmm, I guess this is the first thread you've read in AH. Welcome to the message boards.

This is what you've missed.

 Maverick,

If you want to flame me at least make sure you know what you're whining about.

Notice the complaint is about the P-38 stall speeds but the test data is about speed and climb. I'm just asking that he post the data on the AH stall speeds of the P-38 before ripping other A/C.

And Fishu or RAM? First I am obviously not a Luftwabble and second I have data to back up my whining. Please  

f4udoa,

You are still sounding a lot like fushu and ram.

I reread (again) the post cit made in this thread (which was started on the 15th) about the 38. I still find no mention of porking any other planes FM in it. Please note I don't spend a lot of time memorizing other threads and cross referencing them.

I noted a quote in cit's post regarding stall characteristics. Seems there was some data in it. As to the actual minutia of the game figures, I don't know and don't care.

Finally if you haven't guessed yet the main reason I posted was the "tone" and comments you made about cit. You have much data or figures on the bollili-loco (sp?) reference?

Lighten up, this is a game not real life.


Flame away all you like now, as if it will have any impact on anything.

Mav

[Badboy]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:

BadBoy,

That is another great chart<S>!!
Is that an AH chart or is it based on real life numbers? Did you get your copy of the Test pilots Association on WW2 fighters?

Later
F4UDOA

That is an Aces High chart.

Yep, they sent me a copy of the report and it arrived the same week. It has provided useful validation data for my own analysis.

Thank you for the contact.

Badboy

[Citabria]

almost all actual ww2 fighting by american fighters was done with significant amounts of fuel on board, especially during bomber escort missions. the U.S. fighters would drop their drop tanks before combat but still had almost full internal fuel tanks after entering the fight.


there are some exceptions to this such as the rear main in p51 being used first and the outer wingtip tanks on the 38 being used ahead of time but overall these guys were going to the battle on external tanks leaving the main internal tanks full so they could return to base.

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
almost all actual ww2 fighting by american fighters was done with significant amounts of fuel on board, especially during bomber escort missions. the U.S. fighters would drop their drop tanks before combat but still had almost full internal fuel tanks after entering the fight.


there are some exceptions to this such as the rear main in p51 being used first and the outer wingtip tanks on the 38 being used ahead of time but overall these guys were going to the battle on external tanks leaving the main internal tanks full so they could return to base.

Not to mention that alot of the centerline tanks could not be jettisoned do to standing orders from the brass.