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[Nath-BDP]

The LW in the Med. had no numerical superiority after Operation Torch (December 42). P38s began operations in the Med around that time FYI. I remember II/JG 2 getting something like 150 kills and only losing 7 a/c over a four month period (Nov-Feb 43). What I've read is that the P38s in the Med got slaughtered, as did most of the aircraft in that theater until the Allies got their toejam together and stopped flying in unorganized gaggles like a bunch of tards.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Jekyll]

Probably the main reason for the demise of the AH P-38 is what has happened to the torque model.

I remember in earlier versions being able to go vertical in a P-38, watching my opponent stall out below me as he fought the torque of his engine.

But is just doesn't happen anymore.  Now any aircraft can go pure vertical and hang there all the way to 0 airspeed, with no apparent degradation of control.

Back in 1.03, I recall trying to teach one of my squaddies how to do hammerhead turns in the F4U ..... it was BLOODY HARD!  At the peak of the vert climb, that big engine kept rolling me out of the hammerhead.

THAT was one huge advantage for the 'no-torque' P38.

But not any more  

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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Nath there was supposedly an encounter by Galland and a P38. I cant remember the story exactly but apparently Galland was flying a D9(september44 earliest??????? why was galland flying a D9??) and he was bounced by a 38 and they went at it for a while after which they disengaded and went home. Apparently Galland met the 38 pilot at a fighter convention after the war, when he overheard the US pilot describing a wild dogfight with a "long nose" 190 which apparently matched Galland's memories of the fight. I donno it sounds pretty good and accurate (still not sure if Galland flew D9s), but I cant be sure anymore since I read this a few years ago. BTW Nath Galland did fly a few times even after he became General der Jagdfliger, although these were unauthorized combat flights.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 12-18-2000).]

[RAM]

Galland only flew Me262s after he was dismissed of his command position by Göring. He immediatly formed the JV44, wich I know it had a 190D9 complement to protect the jet's take off and landings.

But I quite doubt that he ever flew one D9, less fighting against a P38 in it. He was injured and almost killed by a P47 in his Me262, tho.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Jigster]

   

Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
The LW in the Med. had no numerical superiority after Operation Torch (December 42). P38s began operations in the Med around that time FYI. I remember II/JG 2 getting something like 150 kills and only losing 7 a/c over a four month period (Nov-Feb 43). What I've read is that the P38s in the Med got slaughtered, as did most of the aircraft in that theater until the Allies got their toejam together and stopped flying in unorganized gaggles like a bunch of tards.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]

http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_cover.htm

Okay so the description is a lil biased but the actual interview is pretty good.

It's under the full text.

btw I meant numerical advantage over the P-38 in most engagements.



[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

I dunno man, all the books I've read have stated that the LW was always outnumbered in the Med, even during early '41 7./JG 26 days.

It was often expected by a flight of LW aircraft to encounter a force twice their own number. Usually 8, 14 or 20 Allied aircraft.

[Citabria]

 http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_1text.htm


 

Hurlbut: What an aircraft! It could take rough handling, so it could outmaneuver almost anything. And there were two engines to bring you home.

[Jigster]

Maybe due to penetration bomber raids? Kinda like ETO. Trying to relate this exlusively to the 38 groups and not the theatre as a whole. Dunno if it says it in that article, I have the full newsprint at home, but Hurlbut was flying P-38G's for the most part, against 202's, G6's and 190s (no variant specified) with a 38 group generally 1/3 the size of the enemy (30 to 100 usually)

Trying to figure out if the "yo-yo boys" are JG 26 or 27 though. How many other JG groups had yellow noses in Mid' 43?

Needless to say this particular group was pretty lucky  

[Jigster]

 Originally posted by Citabria:
 http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_1text.htm


   

Hurlbut: What an aircraft! It could take rough handling, so it could outmaneuver almost anything. And there were two engines to bring you home.

You forgot to mention it was "out of it's element" as well:

   

Hurlbut: Our missions then were primarily long-range, low-level sorties escorting North American B-25s into enemy controlled areas of Italy, Sicily and Sardinia....
...When I first started combat in April 1943, it was really not unusual for our underequipped and understaffed unit to be flying with only 12 to 20 P-38s and be hit by more than 30 to 100 enemy fighters. Our losses were inescapable, but the enemy's were even greater. The 82nd finally became the top P-38 fighter group in the European theater, with more than 500 enemy victories confirmed.

[/b]



[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

Several different Geschwader had 'yellow noses' but the entire nose wasn't yellow, just the engine access panel below the engine block. Even our G10 in AH has this, and that aircraft is from JG 4. The only Jagdgeschwaders that operated in the Med after January 1942 was JG 27, 54 and 77. Marseille flying under the former.

The all-yellow nose was disbanded after the BoB.

JG 26 did not operate in the MTO post-7 staffel, they left for the eastern front and Greece when JG 27 came in and took over their operations during the Spring/Summer of 1941.


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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
   

"It felt as if an angel was pushing..."
-Reponse of Gen. Adolf Galland after flying the fourth prototype Me 262 in May 1943.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Dead Man Flying]

 

Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
If the P38 was such a great aircraft, as you stated Citabria--then it would have stayed in service, I beleive that the P38 FM is correct. After all, the second highest-scoring P38 ace, Thomas McGuire was killed from spinning his 38. It was never renowned as a great turner.

Sometimes performance has little to do with whether or not a plane stays in service.  Note the differences in cost of production from the P-38 to the P-51:

 http://aviationpage.com/specs/p-38.html

 http://aviationpage.com/specs/p-51.html

The P-38 cost, on average, $155,000 to the P-51's $50,000.  That's three times the cost (not to mention twice the maintenance with two engines) at arguably marginal benefit.  It's entirely possible that the P-38 WAS superior to other American aircraft, but was it 300% better?  I doubt it.  I have no idea if the AH model is accurate or not, but we have to consider explanations other than performance to account for the P-38's discontinuation.

-- Todd/DMF

[Nath-BDP]

unf.... the P51 was better suited for what the USAAF needed it for, a long range escort thus the P38 was phased out of service in the ETO.

Overall, the P51 was a much better warplane than the P38, theres no argument there.

[SKurj]

too much posturin to read much of the crap above but as far as a 38's climb ability is concerned...

I have read that it was able to climb at a steady rate at a higher speed than most other aircraft it came up against or flew beside.  tryin to explain...   errmm  it could hold a zoom at relatively low angles <45 and gain E and extend better than most.

Errm i think i got it..

I used to fly the 38 a fair bit in AW but as high alt both TnB and E fighting.  In AW with full flaps nose down NOTHING could turn with it.  I am amazed at the differences between aircraft handling in different sims, I mean come on.. there should be some similarities..

AKskurj

[gatt]

The sky is falling. A whine about an USAF iron  

[Jigster]

Some aircraft had the painted yellow nose of the famous "Yo-Yo boys." They were German aces who we called that because of their bobbing up-and-down tactics.

The 38's were operating out of Grumbalia if thats any help.

Any ideas?

Btw, those figures on the P-38 and P-51 seem rather inflated...at the peak of production in the US, the cost to turn out a P-51 was @ 17,000$ (which is slightly lower what surplus 51s were sold for after the war) The same is true for the 38's, considering it cost little more then 100,000$ to turn out a B-17G. This doesn't take into consider the intial tooling cost, etc of the first run, but when all the equipment was in full swing.

Thats not to say the ratio isn't right, those are just actual production costs I've seen.

- Jig

PS  A-26's ate P-38's for lunch in AW.  

[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-19-2000).]