Which is a better plane?

[thorsim]

you are not one of those i would call a furballer grizz

i know people fight in the 190s, however those are not usually the ones professing the virtues of furballing ...

the gist i was trying to get at is that all the reasons those that furballers profess are the virtues of "fighting" would be even more productive if the fights were taken on in planes that are a bit more difficult in those situations, yet few of the people advocating that approach can ever be found in anything other than a great furballer.  it sort of lends less credit to the "i do this because it makes me better" argument, and lends more weight to the counter argument that the furballers are just crying because somebody found a way to shoot them down without furballing and how unfair they think that is.  

I do dogfight in 190s but I don't expect somebody like you to do it and I would never recommend doing it for the average pilot asking a generic question about the aircraft's strengths and weaknesses.

[Ardy123]

you are not one of those i would call a furballer grizz

I almost never see anyone actually 'fight' in 190s, its always a quick pass followed by running away or swooping in and picking someone already engaged, and that includes you Thorsim and Bnz. I am calling you guys out because you guys talk a lot about luft planes etc... That being said, you can turn fight with 190s and last night I had good fights against sunsfan in the da with 190-D9s & p-51s. Here is the deal though, 190s have a NASTY snap stall, and stall at a fairly high speed (around 130) but they have better 'e' retention than a p51 and a better climb rate. They are not too bad in a rolling scissors and nice in vertical reversals (due to the roll rate). I personally prefer the 109G14 and k4 over the 190s but flown right,  I could see it being a nasty plane to contend with.

[thorsim]

i'm not sure what you are getting at?

do i furball as a prefrence, no ... do i furball in the 190, yes ... do i think that there is only one real way to approach the game, no ... do i think anyone who differs in their approach to the game from mine is "wrong", no ...

if you are saying i do not fight in the 190s you are incorrect ...

if you are saying i don't think that is the best approach you are right, but i have never said differently ...

what i find somewhat annoying, disingenuous, and  suspect, is someone suggesting all sorts of unkind things because someone does not have a tendency to hop into a situation where the complainer has engineered all the advantages, especially when those same players refuse to engage in situations where they might be at a disadvantage.  

I almost never see anyone actually 'fight' in 190s, its always a quick pass followed by running away or swooping in and picking someone already engaged, and that includes you Thorsim and Bnz. I am calling you guys out because you guys talk a lot about luft planes etc... That being said, you can turn fight with 190s and last night I had good fights against sunsfan in the da with 190-D9s & p-51s. Here is the deal though, 190s have a NASTY snap stall, and stall at a fairly high speed (around 130) but they have better 'e' retention than a p51 and a better climb rate. They are not too bad in a rolling scissors and nice in vertical reversals (due to the roll rate). I personally prefer the 109G14 and k4 over the 190s but flown right,  I could see it being a nasty plane to contend with.

[Ardy123]

AS I said before, I was not attempting to attack you, I was just stating that  contrary to how most people fly them (BnZ and picking), 190s can turn fight well and can be a formidable plane to fight against. Also, shy of just bnzing, I don't think they are suitable for beginners.

[BnZs]

Hey TC, mind if I post the film of our "duels" in the 190 A-5 for the sake of this horse's ass?

I almost never see anyone actually 'fight' in 190s, its always a quick pass followed by running away or swooping in and picking someone already engaged, and that includes you Thorsim and Bnz. I am calling you guys out because you guys talk a lot about luft planes etc... That being said, you can turn fight with 190s and last night I had good fights against sunsfan in the da with 190-D9s & p-51s. Here is the deal though, 190s have a NASTY snap stall, and stall at a fairly high speed (around 130) but they have better 'e' retention than a p51 and a better climb rate. They are not too bad in a rolling scissors and nice in vertical reversals (due to the roll rate). I personally prefer the 109G14 and k4 over the 190s but flown right,  I could see it being a nasty plane to contend with.

[grizz441]

AS I said before, I was not attempting to attack you, I was just stating that  contrary to how most people fly them (BnZ and picking), 190s can turn fight well and can be a formidable plane to fight against. Also, shy of just bnzing, I don't think they are suitable for beginners.

Problem with the MA is, engaging into a turn fight in any populated area will result in death most of the time unless you 2 week noob pwn the guy you are fighting and move on quickly.

[jdbecks]

I will never turn fight in a dora..I always use the vertical....I tend to fly the dora quite aggressively now, if we end up low and slow I will break off and accerlate away and then turn it into an E fight, or if I can not break off, I will try to use my roll rate  to move out of phase and initate a scissors etc.

not that I am making out that I am a good stick, but most other 190s I bump into in the MA, I usualy shoot them down or they dive out, as I find they are flown too timid, or the other pilot deos not know the plane as well as I do.Since I have started AH, I have only ever flown 190s and 109s, most of the time in lady D,152 or K4..I have flown a few non luft rides in the odd FSO and DA. No mater what aircraft I fly for awhile ( another varient of 109/190) I always come back to the lady D.

[W7LPNRICK]

JMO- To me the 109 is much easier to learn & fly at low and med alts/speeds, turns cleaner like a spit, responds well at most speeds. I love that big elevator! It can pull you up abruptly and back down quickly out of someone's sight picture. That Clank of the pneumatic elevator aileron actuator is unique and kinda sounds cool to me. However, It locks up in a fast dive and makes you go test drilling. The 190 is finicky, has smaller main wing surfaces, hates slow turns, wants to stall easily, harder to land, doesn't like its flaps, doesn't want to glide at all, tries to slip it's tail under and ahead of you in a medium speed high g-turn/climbs. If you slow down, your dead. It dives much better, less apt to get compression lock on control surfaces from excessive speed. Fly high, dive strafe and climb back up, and look for another op. Peregrine Falcon vs Chicken Hawk. 

[Nemisis]

Never noticed that people avoid either yak or 109. Really, I find I get more attention in a yak or 109 than about any other aircraft that isn't one of those "sure kills" (l-16, brewster, F4F, P-40B, etc).

And I attack them just as much as any other aircraft. I usually attack by threat level: a 109 is more dangerous than a P-40, just as a 262 is more dangerous than a 109. And a 109 isn't much or any harder than a P-51, or a 190.

[Scotty55OEFVet]

 

[save]

190a5 is one of the most surviable planes in the arena, flown correctly

You have to stay fast and use its quick turn rate do get angle.
if you use 2 *20mm guns only, it can surprise many pilots thinking they are safe because they survived the snapshot.
you really have to set a harddeck in the 190 - its survivability depends on its acceleration by diving to  regain manoeuvrability fast.
Use WEP wise and try to cool engine off when you can.


As for the 190a8 - its a pig in drag compared


Btw I hate la7's more than yak9's - them I can outmanoeuvre with ease.
Glad we dont have yak3's here - in WB they where a plague

[Bubbajj]

Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.

[Saurdaukar]

Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.

Pulling back on the stick is one of several ways to gain a firing solution.  If thats your only option, an FW is not the choice.

[Urchin]

Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.

I'd say the post-op P-51 would be a candidate.  Other 190s, most of the bombers (all of the 4 engine ones).  Think that is about it.

[gyrene81]

Just out of curiosity, what planes can one hope to out "turnfight" in any FW model? Turnfighter is the last adjective I'd use to describe any of the Wulfs.

If you're talking flat turns which are not ideal for 190s, 190-A5 in toonville you can out turn a P-40B for a short time...a 109G or K series...a Tempest in a left hand turn...P-47s.

The 190-A8 doesn't turn well at all...but once in a while you get lucky, just don't hang it in a flat turn.

The 190-D9 can hang with P-51D, P-47, P-38, Tempest, Typhoon.

Of course as Bubbajj says, there are the bombers.