A question about the spifire mkXIV

[JENG]

I'm not a pilot nor an engineer, but I do know the basics bout flightdynamics, thrust-to-weight ratios, aspect-ratios (I've been reading up on this boards   )

My question is this... How will the spit XIV perform in AH? I know this is not something we are going to find out pretty soon but still it's not a silly question.

Most of the Nay sayers believe it will have the beautiful E retention of the spitIX only faster, much better climbing and even better acceleration. Therefor it would be the plane without equals and everybody would fly it.

Most of the Aye sayers say it's all nonsense at that when the Mk XIV arrives it will be a very small storm. They continue to show stats from the game which show that the LW planes have actualy a much better K/D ratio then the spit series.

We've all flown the spitIX and even tho some are discusted by it and others marvel by it we all know it's got very good handling and beautiful E-retention.

If I remember correctly the spit IX in WB had the same nice handling, but not so the spit XIV. It's torque was quite unique to say the least and it's low handling wasn't nearly as good as the spit IX. I know the FM in AH is pretty different but I trust HT and company will provide a pretty accurate FM when it comes around, and the spit XIV won't be as dangerous as we all think it will be.

If it will be handling almost as good as the IX then I'm worried and I'll join the Sissyfire bandwagon  

About the spitIX... well I think it's FM is accurate enough (what do I know   ) I've flown the 109 G10 alot this tour and I have to work more to get kills in it but buggin out is no problem. Then again when I fly the spitIX I have to watch SA cause once I'm low and outnumbered it's over but killin is a bit easier.

About the stats and the discussions about it... well I tried to come up with some numbers but the only thing they proved is the fact that the spit is a totaly different plane from a 109 or 190   both with strenghts and weaknesses (mind you I feel safer in a  G10 then in a spitIX)


PS: for my calculations I took 3 famous RAF squads and 3 famous LW squads and measured up their K/D ratios in different planes. I wanted to see what the numbers would show me (not the other way around) but the test didn't work because apparently certain RAF units don't fly LW iron in the nescessary amounts to provide objective statistics  
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BEE(JENG)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 "Richthofen"
 
'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit'

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 05-09-2000).]

[Rocket]

S!
  I am not a flight engineer either but just looking at the stats between the V IX and XIV it looks like the same wingspan with more horsepower and weight. Which to the uneducated me would mean a plane that has a higher rated top speed and better alt (max of 44.5k) on the same wings as the V only with 1700lbs + more weight.  I would guess that a good angles fighter would win angles but she will be more of an E fighter like most of the later war planes.  I have flown the Spit V alot and sometimes the IX, I notice that the V stalls later and will turn abit tighter than the IX.  Again my uneducated guess looking at stats would be the XIV would stall quicker in a low turn fight.

NOTE: Again these are the ramblings of an uneducated guesser   I hope that someone with some real theories would back/disprove these ramblings. Besides I am bored at work  

S!
Rocket

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[This message has been edited by Rocket (edited 05-09-2000).]

[funked]

The difference between Spitfire Mk. IX and XIV should be about the same as the difference between Me 109G-2 and Me 109G-10.

[juzz]

No Spitfire Mk XIV - I want the Vampire Mk I!  

Faster!
Dives faster!
Zooms higher!
Turns tighter!
More guns!

Best of all - looks like an egg crossed with a P-38!  

[Jochen]

 

The difference between Spitfire Mk. IX and XIV should be about the same as the difference between Me 109G-2 and Me 109G-10.

Yup, I bet the torque is quite awful making low speed handling bit difficult. Also turning ability might be also worser than of, say, IX.

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jochen

Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (Warbirds)
Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)

Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!

Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes

[juzz]

There appears to be evidence suggesting the Mk XIV could actually turn as well as the Mk VIII and IX, even though it was much heavier.

Mk XIV vs Mk IX:

"Turning Circle- The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire Mk XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord. The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV."

Mk XIV vs Mk VIII:

"In spite of heavier controls the Spitfire XIV is more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire VIII in turns at all heights."

"The Mk XIV is superior above 25,000ft and with its better turning characteristics it is more than a match for the VIII."

Now that means the Vampire outturns a Spitfire Mk IX!  

Bring on the Vampire!  

[Karnak]

The reason the XIV out turned the earlier Spits is power.  It has a 2000+hp engine and a 5 bladed prop.  It would pull itself through turns that a Spit IX, loaded to the same weight, would stall out of.  Thus the XIV will do a 180 or 360 faster than a IX.
Its turning radius on the other hand is larger.

Another advantage is that it can climb like a bat out of hell, almost matching the Bf-109G-10/K-4 up to 25,000 ft, and exceeding it above that.  No other allied fighter could come close to that.

Roll rate will be very similar to the MkIX.  If the indicated airspeed reaches about 500mph, the airelons reverse.  Keep in mind that that is INDICATED air speed, altitude modifies this greatly.  If it is doing a real 500mph at sea level, its indicate air speed will be 500mph.  If its doing a real 500mph at 20,000ft, its indicated air speed is going to be about 350-400mph, well below the airelon reversal speed.

Maximum speed at best altitude for the MkXIV is 448mph, up from 408mph for the MkIX.

Directional stability depends on the version of the MkXIV modeled.  If it is a "razorback" XIV, its stability will be about the same as the MkIX as they enlarged the tail to compensate for the torque.  If it is a "bubble canopy" MkXIV it will have less directional stability.

Stall characteristics are friendly.  According to the Test pilot (Jeffrey Quill) one had to hold it in a stall to get it to spin.  If you center stick and throttle back it will come out of the spin on its own after 1 to 2 360s.  It does have an unusual spin in that the nose will bounce from 30 degrees below horizontal to 70 degrees above (numbers from memory, might be different) unlike the MkIX which would spin in the classic nose down manner.

The Griffon engine drives the prop in the opposite direction from earlier Spits so the torque will be opposite of what you're used to.  Because of the 2030hp engine and 5 bladed prop, the torque is also much stronger.  This is particularly noticeable at low speed.

Visibility forward is improved due to the downward slope of the nose.

Due to its greater weight, its low speed handling is not as good.  It can however recover its energy, or pull through some maneuvers that a IX could not due to its increased power.

Landing is more difficult due to increased weight raising the stall speed.

Range is roughly comparable to the MkIX for the "razorback" XIV.  It has a larger fuel tank, but the Griffon is thirstier.  Endurance on the "razorback" XIV is less than on the MkIX.  The range is similar to the Ix only due to increased cruising capability.  The "bubble canopy" XIV has an additional fuel tank which extends its range and endurance beyond the MkIXs.  Both can be fitted with 45 or 90 gallon drop tanks.

External stores are greater for the XIV than for the IX.  The XIV can carry 1000lbs of bombs or 8 Rocket Projectiles.

Vulnerability to ground fire is reduced due to the Griffon engine.  This required the oil pan to be relocated to a safer location.  Thus the XIV does not share the vulnerabilities of Merlin engined aircraft such as the Spit IX, Spit V, Hurricane and Mustang C or D.

A 2nd armor plate has been added behind the pilot to deal with 30mm cannon which the Germans have begun to employ in numbers.  There is a 6 inch space between plates.  The 30mm round will hit the first plate and explode, piercing it.  The second plate will stop the shrapnel.  A plane hit thus will not necessarily be flyable, but the pilot has a much better chance at survival.

Sisu

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-10-2000).]

[Pongo]

Kool post karnak thanks

[Citabria]

you get a spit 14 at stall speed and firewall the throttle I dinae care what you read.

you heard what happens to helocopters w/o a tail rotor is what should happen to spit 14 in a power on low speed stalling loop just like the 109G10.

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-12-2000).]

[Karnak]

Citabria, make sense man!!!.  I have no idea what you just tried to say.  If you're claiming that a Spit XIV will go into a spin by firewalling the throttle a low speed, you don't know what you're talking about.

Sisu

[Nath-BDP]

Just how the 190 should drop like a rock once its engine stops, it had the 'glide characteristics of a brick'.

[mx22]

Karnak,

You have yourself cliamed that you are not an engeener, so when Cit says something that is correct from physical point of view. Think of this. Plane with a powerfull prop engine stands on a ground with idle throttle. Then pilot immidiatly pushes throttle all the way to full power. What happenes? Plane ground loops. Situation should be pretty much the same when plane flies at a very low speed with low throttle setting. Pushing it all the way forward should roll plane around its axis. Simple physics law.

mx22

[juzz]

It won't ground loop - the prop will pull the tail up and it will strike the ground first.  

[funked]

Ask a guy who flew one:  http://www.airspacemag.com/ASM/Web/Special/Ethell/pirep2.html

[Karnak]

mx22, I was, and remain, unsure of what Cit was trying to say.

If you are at low speed and you firewall the throttle, yes, you will feel it.  But it can be mostly compensated for and it will not absolutely put the aircraft into an uncontrolled spin.  When you look at a WWII fighter, note how much of the wings portrude beyond the radius of the propeller.  That causes a lot of air resisitance to just flipping the aircraft onto its back.
I have read accounts of pilots firewalling the throttle of the Spit XIV while it was on the ground, not even moving, and in no case did the Spit roll over.  If the brakes were tightend so that the Spit wouldn't immediately move forward, the tail lifted with 500 to 600 pounds of force.

Sisu