Author Topic: you know that ratta rat I16 soviet bumble bee: 20mm cannons! turns like mad!!!!!!  (Read 1513 times)

Offline Citabria

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I think it would be worth the effort in terms of flight model and 3dmodel to bring the I16 ratta to Aces High.

it is early war same as the hurricane
turns like mad is very small and has cannons.

this thing will find its way into furballs no doubt about it.


its slow but who cares

so is the spit5 but no one seems to notice.

ratta
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Offline Citabria

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yes ive been playing il2 sturmovic again  :)

and the i16 is fascinating
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Offline Creamo

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Offline Wotan

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how ya gonna model hand cranking the landing gear.

Offline eskimo2

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it would be cool.

eskimo

Offline brady

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Yes it would, I would love to fly it, i put a couple post's about it in the Aircraft and vehicals section,it carried rockets and bombs too, would be great fun.

Offline mrsid2

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From what I've read from ww2 experiences, I-16 was the ultimate HO plane. B&Z planes ate them for lunch and most common response of the soviet pilots was to execute a sharp turn to meet the bouncing attacker HO..

Bring it.. Let's see if history repeats itself! LOL.

Offline jarbo

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If fester is askin for it, no good can come of this....but what the heck i want one too  :)
Jarbo

Offline Citabria

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i16 type 24 to be exact

the one w shvak 20mm cannons

 
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The aircraft soon proved to be rather difficult to fly - it was almost unstable under all three axes, and had to be flown with ceaseless attention. On the plus side, its rolls and loops were so fast as to be quite startling. Despite problems with the design, it was judged potentially superior to the I-14 and in May 1934, production of the I-16 was organised at two factories.

so roll rate of 190 turn rate of the hurri or better maybe and unsatble and unforgiving with ultra sensitive controls? AWSOME!

[ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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Offline Citabria

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but what about the interior?    :D

 
   

   

 

how does it fly? ask mark hana
This article, written by Mark Hanna, is the third in a three part series, and was first published in Classic Wings Downunder magazine, Volume 5, Number 2. It is Copyright © 1998 Classic Wings Downunder magazine.

Aircraft from the Spanish Civil War 1930's have always had a special appeal to me. I was particularly intrigued by tales of violent, dangerous close-in dog-fights between early 109's, Fiat CR32s and the Polikarpov series fighters, Ratas, Chatos and Chaikas. Of course the pre-war types are impossibly rare. I remember talking with Robs Lamplough soon after one of his warbirds recovery coup's of the late 1970's and early 80's and him telling me about a Rata which had reputedly been belly landed on a remote hillside in Spain and which was still lying there in dilapidated but complete condition. I felt almost desperate with excitement to attempt to retrieve and rebuild this aircraft.

Nearly fifteen reasonably maturing years later, how incredible then to arrive at a high, dusty, mountainous airfield to see a flight of Ratas sitting outside, cockpit doors opened and straps set as if they were ready to take off for one last duel. This was the remarkable and very exciting sight greeting my father and me when we arrived once more at Tim Wallis' Alpine Fighter Collection in Wanaka, New Zealand.

Tim and his chief engineer, Ray Mulqueen, encountered a great deal of difficulty in fulfilling Tim's objective in rebuilding six original Ratas and three Chaikas (the gull wing biplane comrade to the Rata) in Russia. But finally after five years of work, here at last were the first half of his Russian squadron.

The Rata looks extremely racy. It is very small and overpowered for its time. Russian pilots more used to biplanes, looked with horror at the tiny wings and lack of flaps (in the later variants). Modern pilots also look at the same features with raised eyebrows and a certain amount of trepidation. These features plus the almost full span ailerons ("must roll like hell"), lack of trimmers, an undercarriage retraction system looking like a winch from a boat, an appalling view forward in a three point attitude, plus not an English caption in sight, all promised a fairly exciting ride ahead.

As you approach the aeroplane and begin a walk round, you immediately notice the ply/beech wooden fuselage which is very well finished and extremely strong. You also notice with some surprise, the fabric covered metal construction of the wings and again the huge ailerons (most Russian aeroplanes roll very well). Other unusual features are the very delicate looking undercarriage complete with wire and cables for retraction leading up in to the guts of the aeroplane, numerous exhaust stubs emanating all around the cowling, big two bladed propeller with little ground clearance to absorb all the power from the ASh 62 IR 1,000 horsepower motor, cowl flaps are in the front of the cowlings (good for Russia but not needed in New Zealand in early summer). The cockpit is protected by a tiny windscreen and small side doors similar to the Spitfire but on both sides of the fuselage and of course, no canopy.

Climbing on board, the blended wood fuselage is very smooth and you need care to mount the aeroplane in a dignified manner. Once sat down, you are aware that the ground angle is extreme and that the view forwards is very poor. In comparison the visibility over the nose in a Spitfire or a P-51 is fantastic. In fact, in the Rata it is worse than the Me109. The next problem is that if you choose to sit high in order to see out, the small curved cockpit doors are so tight when you close them that you now almost have to sit sideways to fit in! In conclusion, you simply end up sitting low! Having said that, there is a quaint translated note from the Russian test pilot which states "do not be shy or embarrassed to open the side doors in flight prior to landings to help you see out".

The tidy 1930's style cockpit of one of the restores 'Ratas'.
Note the multitude of cables coming from the undercarriage
selector and crank at the top right.

Once finally settled in the aeroplane and looking around left to right you see in order, an emergency fuel shut-off cock, "wobble pump", throttle and mixture controls together both working in the conventional sense and a little further forward the carb heat and prop lever co-located.

The main instrument panel is well appointed with all the standard instruments (although there is no artificial horizon). As with most Russian aeroplanes, there are a bank of switches used to 'arm' systems and to provide electrical power to them (such as fire system, turn and slip indicator, engine instruments etc.). In addition starter energiser and engage switches (on a fly wheel system a bit like the T6), plus primer, gear lights, fuel gauge and an odd pull push handle to make it read. Other peculiarities to Westerners include ASI in km/h, plus boost/manifold pressure in mm of mercury giving 0 boost at 760mm. The pilot's straps are superb and really keep you firmly glued to the seat.

Starting the Rata is simple. Mixture on, throttle set, wobble a bit - get some fuel pressure, prime five or six shots, energise the fly wheel, noise builds to a high pitch - engage and mags on and she'll fire. The noise from the multiple exhaust stacks is spectacular and very satisfying. In sympathy, white smoke coughs and belches randomly from the engine. The noise and vibration levels are very similar to the Yak 11.

It's good practice to warm up to 600 to 700 RPM for a minute and then gently increase to 1000 RPM. The next parameters to look for are 120 degrees cylinder head temperature and 50 degrees in the oil, prior to checking the engine. Once the cylinder head and oil is increasing, you can start a gentle taxi - the brakes are not spectacularly good and taxying is best achieved by power, rudder and judicious amount of forward stick to turn. If you keep the stick back - the elevator grinds the tail wheel hard against the dirt and you will drive along in straight lines all day!

At the hold, with the temperatures and pressures in the green, you stand on the brakes and start to increase power, hoping to get 760mm and about 2000 / 2100 RPM. There is a good chance the brakes will start to slip beforehand - say at 1700 - 1800 RPM, so cycle the prop back and forth slowly once, twice and more quickly a third time. Check the mags - not less that 100 drop per side. Next the simple pre take-off checks consist of

Trim - N/A; Throttle Friction - tight; Mixture - rich; Pitch - full fine; Fuel contents, pressure, primer; Flaps - N/A; Gills - open; Oil cooler - open; Gyros - set; Instruments in the green; oxygen - N/A; Hood - N/A; Harness - tight and secure; Hydraulics - N/A (brakes holding?); Controls - full and free;

It's time to go - the power can be applied quite aggressively and you can keep it coming to 820mm & 2250RPM. The increase in noise is fantastic and it is possible to lift the tail quickly to vaguely see where you're going - you need to have the horizon cutting the 10.55 and 1.10 position on the forward cowling. There is very little tendency to swing and she runs pretty much straight as an arrow, although the rough Wanaka grass gives a harsh ride to the hard sprung oleos, the Rata and you!

If you have not figured it out before, it is now that you realise that excellent goggles are a must!! With a ground roll of about 400 yards and the smallest of rotations suddenly she's airborne and with a quick glance down you see the speed very rapidly at 200 km/h which is both the best climb and gear up speed.

The Russian test pilots recommend gear retraction not before 1000 metres!! This is rather conservative - but with good reason - getting the gear up is a bit of an epic. Power back now to max continuous 2000 & 760mm and holding the nose up to contain the speed at 200 km/h. Holding it down low after take off and snappy gear retractions are not the Rata's forte.

There is warm buffeting air everywhere, but the aeroplane immediately feels right. With a positive rate of climb it is time to sort the gear out.

Check the "brake spring" is set - check the handle lock is released (allows the retraction handle to rotate) select another handle for the "hoist" ratchet gear to the up position and then start to crank like mad!! 44 turns later you can see the wheels entering the belly of the aeroplane underneath you - suddenly the handle stiffens, a last turn or half turn and "hurrah" 2 red lights telling you the wheels are up. By now we're at 2000 feet and it is noticeably warmer in the cockpit. Power back to 1900 & 680 mm and the speed builds to 350-360km/h. Temperatures and pressures are good, with the oil temperature stable at 75 degrees and the cylinder head temperature at 180.

How does she feel? We're holding a slight push force on the stick (remember no elevator trim) - roll rate is excellent and very positive - about 100 -120 degrees per second. Pitch is also very effective and the Rata is delightful in aerobatics - although as speed increases in the dive, passing 400 km/h the push force on the stick reduces to 0 and then as 430 km/h is reached, a very slight pull force is required - something that needs a little care running in low level for the start of a display. The aeroplane accelerates very quickly in the dive and when seen from the ground, appears extremely fast. Stalling in manoeuvre gives plenty of warning with pronounced tail buffeting before she drops the left hand wing quite progressively and definitely not violently. The aeroplane delights in reversing from a max. rate turn in one direction rapidly to the other. You can see that this is a superb close in dogfighter. The delightful handling characteristics, plus the open cockpit, vibrations and noise provide a very exciting ride. Rolling requires little rudder input to stay balanced. I have the feeling that you could snap roll the Rata deliberately very precisely. Vertical performance is excellent and with excess energy pulling up and unloading straight up in to the vertical produces spectacular performance.

Stalling clean and dirty, is an interesting experience - below 250 km/h you are holding a pull force which is slightly perturbing until you get used to it. She stalls slower clean than with the gear down! Stall is at about 135-140 km/h and again is very gentle power off with a gentle wing drop that stops immediately when back stick is released.

It is back in the circuit that the work load goes up again. You need to select the gear selector down, release the handle lock, grab hold of the gear crank handle very positively, select up slightly to release the up locks - then very carefully start to crank down. The handle will immediately start to try to run away and you must keep hold of it (it's not that difficult) whilst the gear, aided by the airflow, comes down through the same 44 turns (only much easier than up).

As soon as the wheels break from the underside of the wings, the through draft of air up through the cockpit starts the same buffeting as before. Finally 2 greens and you are now down wind at 200 km/h, holding a pull force and starting to turn finals. I have to say that it is here that I least like the Rata - landing on Wanaka's narrow grass, concentrates the mind and the problem is that if you three point the aeroplane - the view forwards is really terrible. It would be fine at Duxford or on a wide concrete strip - but otherwise I am sure you are better off wheel landing the Rata. Definitely not something I expected originally. Basically, you should fly a slightly power on "hot" approach speed bleeding through 180km/h to not less than 160 km/h on very short finals to touch for a tail down wheeler. This seems to cause fairly consistently reasonable landings and the landing roll out is still only 500 yards or so, even not using brake. I have to say that, after only 5 sorties, I'm not exactly the prophet when it comes to landing Ratas - it definitely needs a bit of practice.

Seen talking at Wanaka are (left to right) author Mark Hanna,
AFC Ops. Manager Ray Mulqueen, Keith Skilling, who carried out
the first New Zealand flights,and Ray Hanna.

How do they compare with other WW2 fighters? Well, I believe, very favourably with some of the other aeroplanes. I had just flown a Hurricane for the first time, a week before the Rata and sorry to Hurricane aficionados, but I was really surprised and disappointed in the aeroplane's handling and performance (although very interesting and lovely to fly the type). I felt that you would be better off fighting in a Rata. At any rate I felt quickly far more comfortable in it. In air combat against early low powered 109's, I would suspect that the two aircraft were very comparable. Later variants of the Messerschmitt would easily be able to dictate the fight against the Rata due to the 109's superior speed and vertical performance.

Considering the Rata was in full squadron service by 1936 and was the first heavily armed, retractable gear, monoplane fighter in the world, it has many merits and surprisingly few vices. It is a real classic in its own right with a European connection and history beyond its combat on the Russian front. I would thoroughly recommend the aeroplane to anyone who would like to own a very reasonably priced exciting example of flying history.

[ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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Offline Citabria

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wait there is more

 
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During the New Zealand testing programme, these aircraft have been flown by several members of the Alpine Fighter Collection and also Ray and Mark Hanna of the Old Flying Machine Company during a visit to New Zealand late last year. They have all been amazed at the performance and agility of these fighters and in particular the amazing acceleration when their nose is pointed downwards. Visually blunt nosed and unstreamlined, the designers have achieved an amazing feat here in acquiring more thrust from the exiting engine cooling air than the drag created by the flat nosed cowlings.
http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/aircraft/i16.htm
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Offline Buzzbait

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S! Citabria

Glad to see I got you interested with my reply to your "Great Turn and Burn..." post.

The I-53 is in someways even more interesting.  Definitely more maneuverable although not with the same turn of speed.

The Gloster Gladiator also would be a cool plane.  It was probably the 'uber' biplane.

But those twin 20mm on the I-16 are definitely eye openers.

Offline Buzzbait

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S!

By the way the real name of the I-16 is "Ishak" which means "Little Donkey".  It was called by this name by Russian pilots on account of its wilfulness and tendency to kick back and spin out if you were ham handed in flying it.

The name "Rata" was given to the Republican flown I-16's by Fascist Spanish pilots fighting on the other side during the Spanish Civil war.  It means "Rat".  The Russian pilots never called it "Rata".

The 109B was first flown in combat during the Spanish war, and the I-16 was one of its most common opponents.  At that time the I-16 was a pretty even match for the 109B.  (109B only went 290mph max. at best alt.) Of course both aircraft were upgraded by the time '41 had gone by.  As mentioned in your post, the best I-16 model was the type 24.  The Type 10 was common in the Spanish Civil War.

Offline Buzzbait

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S!

By the way, like I mentioned, the I-16 is not slow at Sea Level.  The type 24 did 324mph at that altitude.

Offline Grendel

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From Finnish Air Force tactics manual from 1943:

 
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The I-16 and I-16bis are very nimble fighters used at lower altitudes. A formation of several planes (about 5-10) willingly form the so
     called "Spanish fly", that is, the planes fly round in circles on a horizontal plane [Lufberry circle], so when attacking against one of them
     you become target of the next plane. The best method against this kind of circle is to form a similar one above it. The circle goes
     around in the same direction, but you attack from above, and after firing, pull up. When flying alone the I-16 (as well as the Chaika)
     prefers to shoot head-on. In such a case you should try to evade either up or down depending on [original text illegible] using the
     rudder with force.

If the enemy plane is an I-16 or I-153, use the following tactics. Initially climb about 500 meters higher than the enemy, because our
     planes are faster. During the approach stay right behind the enemy, because visibility to the rear sides is good from both planes. The
     approach speed can be quite high. Just before reaching shooting distance, slip to one side, so you'll be able to shoot him slightly from
     the side. When shooting from dead 6 o'clock of these planes, the pilot armour has often absorbed even the 12.7 mm bullets. (For
     example W.O. Alho shot his guns empty at a Chaika's pilot armour over the Seiskari Island without any effect. The fuselage skin
     behind the armour was ripped apart, but the plane didn't go down.) You have to aim well from the start, because the I-16 and Chaika
     are so manoeuvrable that you can't hit them after they have seen you approach. Their most common evasive manoeuvre is a fast
     180-degree turn. When you notice that the enemy starts this manoeuvre, it's better to pull up and set up for a new attack. It is not wise
     to try a head-on attack, because the hitting possibilities are the same for you and the enemy. When you have the faster plane, always go
     for the rear sector shot, and don't risk a head-on. When you have shot at an I-16 or I-153 pull up very tightly. Never get in front of
     these planes, because they are both manoeuvrable enough to pull up behind you and take a shot at you. Never stay and turn with either
     one of these planes, because they are both much nimbler than our fighters.

Our fighters must battle against either slower and more agile, or faster and less nimble fighter units. The first category nowadays
     includes the I-16, I-153, and at lower altitude, the Hurricane. All the other fighters belong to the latter group. The so-called "rocking
     chair tactics" is used against the first group. The attacking unit climbs a little higher than the enemy and attacks straight from the rear.
     The planes dive in turns and fire at only one plane. After that they pull up and the second plane executes a similar strike. This is kept up
     until the whole enemy formation is scattered. However, the objective is to force the enemy to stay in the same area, so that we can also
     fight together and cover each other. The attack against an enemy formation should always be aimed at the rearmost planes, preferably
     against the rearmost ones, nearest to the edges of the formation. After firing, you must absolutely pull up, be the adversary destroyed or
     not. The pull-up must be performed outward from the enemy formation's centre. This is because the I-16 and Chaika prefer to raise
     their nose and shoot back at you if you give them the slightest opportunity. If the enemy turns out to be an experienced air combatant
     and is not taken by surprise, the attacks must be made by section. The first plane makes a mock attack and his wingman fires at the
     enemy immediately after the enemy has taken evasive action and is most vulnerable. Never fly to the front of the enemy formation. If an
     enemy is for some reason able to sneak behind during the battle, it is best to pick up speed by entering a shallow dive and only after
     that, gain altitude by a gentle climbing turn and join in the fight again. Never dogfight a I-15 or I-153. The first example of this kind of
     tactics was in April 1943 when Captain Karhunen's flight [original text illegible] against eleven I-16s. In a short but [original text
     illegible] otherwise downed all enemy planes, whereas only two of the six Brewsters had hits in harmless places. An extremely
     noteworthy fact is that, for example, Captain Karhunen made 15 attacks during the fight downing two enemy planes. This is something
     for fresh pilots to note! You cannot shoot down an enemy plane in every diving attack you make. In order to follow proper tactics and
     considering the whole situation, you must pull up after your attack even if by continuing it, you would gain advantage for further fighting.

Etc.
Pulled from Virtual Pilots Finland history website: http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/WW2History.html