76mm Sherman V.S. Panther

[BigPlay]

(Image removed from quote.)

Sup.

That was only true of the early Shermans that hit the beaches in Africa and some of the ones in Normandy. Shortly thereafter they were modified with "wet storage," where the ammunition was kept in water-filled bins, and that solved the burning problem.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be terribly taxing to add.

The 76mm gun Sherman was a formidable tank, but since the Tiger was in the game and there was a clear need for a non-perked ride that could waste Tigers, it's clear to see why HTC just cut to the chase and added the Firefly.

Because the 76mm gun was not all that effective against Tigers and frontal shots on the Panther. Since we have no Panthers in the game that's not an issue. The British 17lber was able to defeat a Tigers armor. So I would guess that's why it was added rather then a 76mm armed Sherman.

[Ack-Ack]

HVAP was scarce, but that is true of all specialty ammunition.

HVAP ammo wasn't really scarce due to lack of number of rounds in theater.  The shortage was only in tank units because the HVAP rounds were given to anti-tank artillery and tank killer units as priority and then whatever was left was given to the tank units.  Same reason why these kind of rounds were also in short supply for UK tank units.


ack-ack

[Demetrious]

Because the 76mm gun was not all that effective against Tigers and frontal shots on the Panther. Since we have no Panthers in the game that's not an issue. The British 17lber was able to defeat a Tigers armor. So I would guess that's why it was added rather then a 76mm armed Sherman.

Isn't that what I just said?

[BigPlay]

Isn't that what I just said?

Sorry you did there in the end.

[GtoRA2]

There were NO 76MM shermans used on June 6th.

They were first used in Operation cobra, M4A1 Cast hulls.

They didnt stop producing cast hulls for welded ones either, the cast and welded hull tanks were built at different locations. The Naming sceme is not to designate new models either, its to indicate what Motor/hull type the M4 had.

M4 Radial Welded hull. (some composite hulls as well) (no 76MM)
M4A1 Radial Cast hull (76MM by mid 44)
M4A2 twin Deisel Welded (76MM by mid 44)
M4A3 Welded (76MM by mid 44)
M4A4 A57 Multibank (5 car motors one crank) welded. 75MM gun only.


Some units even late in the game in Europe wanted to keep their 75MM shermans because it was better agaist german infantry. 

[BigPlay]

There were NO 76MM shermans used on June 6th.

They were first used in Operation cobra, M4A1 Cast hulls.

They didnt stop producing cast hulls for welded ones either, the cast and welded hull tanks were built at different locations. The Naming sceme is not to designate new models either, its to indicate what Motor/hull type the M4 had.

M4 Radial Welded hull. (some composite hulls as well) (no 76MM)
M4A1 Radial Cast hull (76MM by mid 44)
M4A2 twin Deisel Welded (76MM by mid 44)
M4A3 Welded (76MM by mid 44)
M4A4 A57 Multibank (5 car motors one crank) welded. 75MM gun only.


Some units even late in the game in Europe wanted to keep their 75MM shermans because it was better agaist german infantry. 

I will find the source where I read it and post it for you.

[GtoRA2]

I will find the source where I read it and post it for you.

Yeah when you post about how I am right you can mention any Zolaga's books on the Sherman.

Like Armored thunderbolt or M4 (76) in combat.

Hint though, they were in England, but no one wanted them.

[BigPlay]

There were NO 76MM shermans used on June 6th.

They were first used in Operation cobra, M4A1 Cast hulls.

They didnt stop producing cast hulls for welded ones either, the cast and welded hull tanks were built at different locations. The Naming sceme is not to designate new models either, its to indicate what Motor/hull type the M4 had.

M4 Radial Welded hull. (some composite hulls as well) (no 76MM)
M4A1 Radial Cast hull (76MM by mid 44)
M4A2 twin Deisel Welded (76MM by mid 44)
M4A3 Welded (76MM by mid 44)
M4A4 A57 Multibank (5 car motors one crank) welded. 75MM gun only.


Some units even late in the game in Europe wanted to keep their 75MM shermans because it was better agaist german infantry. 

This from the all expert web site under M4 Sherman.. I have  a book or 2 at home that support this and will post the books name and author when I get back home.


Beginning in 1944, some Shermans mounted the higher-velocity 76 mm M1 gun giving them anti-tank firepower comparable to the Soviet T-34/85 and many of the AFVs it encountered, particularly the Pz III, Pz IV, and StuG vehicles. The 76 mm armed vehicles first saw combat in Normandy, where half the German tanks encountered were the 45-ton Panther. With a regular APBC ammunition the 76 mm could reliably knock out a Panther only with a shot to its flank. Firing later HVAP ammunition

[BigPlay]

Yeah when you post about how I am right you can mention any Zolaga's books on the Sherman.

Like Armored thunderbolt or M4 (76) in combat.

Hint though, they were in England, but no one wanted them.

Heres one that I know I read about the Shermans in. I will post the quote when I get home. I just remembered the books cover and searched for it on line. It is rather basic but does have some good penetration charts regarding not only the Tiger's gun but other tanks  that the Tiger faced.

Tiger 1 Heavy Tank 1942-45 (New Vanguard)
~Tom Jentz (Author), Peter Sarson (Illustrator)


A

[GtoRA2]

This from the all expert web site under M4 Sherman.. I have  a book or 2 at home that support this and will post the books name and author when I get back home.


Beginning in 1944, some Shermans mounted the higher-velocity 76 mm M1 gun giving them anti-tank firepower comparable to the Soviet T-34/85 and many of the AFVs it encountered, particularly the Pz III, Pz IV, and StuG vehicles. The 76 mm armed vehicles first saw combat in Normandy, where half the German tanks encountered were the 45-ton Panther. With a regular APBC ammunition the 76 mm could reliably knock out a Panther only with a shot to its flank. Firing later HVAP ammunition

Without a date this proves nothing.

[GtoRA2]

Heres one that I know I read about the Shermans in. I will post the quote when I get home. I just remembered the books cover and searched for it on line. It is rather basic but does have some good penetration charts regarding not only the Tiger's gun but other tanks  that the Tiger faced.

Tiger 1 Heavy Tank 1942-45 (New Vanguard)
~Tom Jentz (Author), Peter Sarson (Illustrator)

Oh yeah? I have that one as well, what Page number?

I am sure I can find the pages in the books I listed in a few minutes, I would trust Zolaga over Jentz on Shermans.

[BigPlay]

Oh yeah? I have that one as well, what Page number?

I am sure I can find the pages in the books I listed in a few minutes, I would trust Zolaga over Jentz on Shermans.

My understanding is that Jentz is one of the best armor scholars around. I have read that more then once. I believe that the 76mm armed Shermans did not see tank on tank combat until Operation Cobra a few weeks or so after the invasion but that was a breakout operation designed to breakout of the hedgerow region and was postponed for a couple of weeks due to weather restricting air support. Also considering that most if not all panzer divisions were held back and didn't reach the region in strength until the first week of July makes sense that that was to be their first exposure to combat. Make no mistake they did land on the beaches of Normandy. Maybe not in the first of second or 10 wave but that doesn't mean that they didn't land there. Like I said, from what I have read only 100 or so were on the invasion ships during the landing.

[Ack-Ack]

Like I said, from what I have read only 100 or so were on the invasion ships during the landing.

According to Zaloga in his book, all of the M4s initially deployed in Normandy throughout June of 1944 were the 75mm equipped Shermans (pages 129-131), while the 76mm wasn't deployed until July 1944 when some First Army units started to accept them (page 166).

If there were 100 or so 76mm Shermans sitting in the invasion ships, all they did was take up valuable space.


ack-ack

[GtoRA2]

My understanding is that Jentz is one of the best armor scholars around. I have read that more then once. I believe that the 76mm armed Shermans did not see tank on tank combat until Operation Cobra a few weeks or so after the invasion but that was a breakout operation designed to breakout of the hedgerow region and was postponed for a couple of weeks due to weather restricting air support. Also considering that most if not all panzer divisions were held back and didn't reach the region in strength until the first week of July makes sense that that was to be their first exposure to combat. Make no mistake they did land on the beaches of Normandy. Maybe not in the first of second or 10 wave but that doesn't mean that they didn't land there. Like I said, from what I have read only 100 or so were on the invasion ships during the landing.

So what Jentz books are you talking about? What pages as well since Jentz doesn't do indexes. (WTF)

I have his 2 on the tigers, one on the Panther, plus the speilberger books on the Panzer 3, 4 and Panther.

The 76MM M4A1 Sherman first saw combat in Europe on July 25 1944 on the second day of the Cobra Offensive. They sat in warehouses in England unwanted because the US Army didnt consider the Panther a real threat until after D-Day. Page 16 of M4 (76MM) Sherman Medium Tank 1943-65 by Zaloga.

Acks Page number is from Armored Thunderbolt, also by Zaloga.

[BigPlay]

See Rule #4