Author Topic: improved engine/aircraft model  (Read 8054 times)

Offline Delirium

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7276
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2010, 01:07:12 AM »
that my bladder might overflow, that my backside goes numb,

Hey! I get those two and I don't even fly 'em for real. That reminds me of a certain scenario years ago where I used gatoraid bottles because of the long flight we had during a frame. I laughed a little harder because I wasn't the only one that did it.

A happy medium has to be reached between realism and fun, I think AH manages it beautifully. If some of you don't think so, the next time you get shot down, cancel your account and I'd be happy to write a letter to your widow.
Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline jdbecks

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1460
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2010, 02:07:06 AM »
I think Rasta is playing the wrong game.
JG11

...Only the proud, only the strong...
www.JG11.org

Offline Traveler

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3148
      • 113th Lucky Strikes
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2010, 02:56:03 AM »
Do you really think that pilots of WWII fighters were, in the middle of combat, flipping their cowl/radiator flaps open and shut, watching the engine temperature, constantly and such?  Not one account I have read described that and not one pilot I have talked to even mentioned it.  The only pilot mention I can recall is laughing dismissal of your position by a P-38 pilot. His claim was that in combat you put the throttles through the gate and left them there until the fight was over.

The answer to your question is Yes.  They didn't constantly watch any gauge , but did take a quick look at a lot of gauges during an instrument sweep with their eyes.  And during combat they were constantly adjusting power.  There were restrictions on dive speeds and they keep close tabs on airspeed and g meters.  That I learned first hand from my Dad, he flew P47’s and later P51’s.  When Dad taught me to fly in a J3, he showed me that the power level set in a certain position would always yield a certain RPM and I didn’t need to see the RPM gauge. I just had to remember what the setting felt like in my hand.  That produced muscle memory and I learned where the power lever needed to be set for take off power, cruise and approach.  I didn’t need to see the gauge.  Something that is not easily done in a J3 because the Command pilot sits in the back and with my Dad in front I had a very hard time seeing any of the gauges.   The same goes for fighter aircraft, the pilots didn’t set power so much by looking at a gauge, but rather the position of the power controls, they could feel it.

When I spent those years ferrying those war birds to air shows I could feel that the power controls were in the proper setting and only needed a glance at manifold and RPM gauges.

Shortly before my father’s death he spent two summers flying with me on ferry missions of  a T6.  I learned a lot about flying from my Dad.    He could still roll and loop with the best of them and keep all the coffee in the cup.

Just listen to this all the warning about the F6F operation an  limits  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVtVynNk6SU
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 03:51:20 AM by Traveler »
Traveler
Executive Officer
113th LUcky Strikes
http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/113th_Lucky_Strikes

Offline Peyton

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 228
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2010, 09:50:49 AM »
Raster you seem to be not getting it.  Some of us don't have the time nor the energy to want to spend on trivial aspects of what in the end is a cartoon game of pretend fighter pilots.

You want talk the history, the pilots, the planes, the ground crews etc, I'll go all day and beyond, but when I get an hour here or there to go fly with the guys who share a like interest in that WW2 aviation history, I don't want to spend it on what would add nothing to the immersion and fun I get from the 'game'.

I'm not a WW2 fighter pilot.  I have no interest in getting up in the middle of the night, eating powdered eggs, lousy bacon and coffee, before going to briefing, then out to my bird, going through all the preflight stuff, then waiting for the signal from the tower to taxi, then the form up time with my squadron, followed by fighting weather, sucking oxygen, worrying that my engine might act up, that my guns might fail, that my bladder might overflow, that my backside goes numb, that frost covers my windscreen, that my pitot head might fail, radio might fail, instruments might fail, that the mission might be recalled, that my oxygen might fail, that my control cables might give, that I might spend 7 hours in flight and never see a bandit, that any of the above might force me down in enemy territory or worse yet that I'll really die......etc etc etc.

Oh, and I don't want someone else deciding that I have no choice on what I fly, for which side, and what my mission is.

You get the idea?


I'd suggest that HTC has done a good job letting my imaginary fighter pilot, pretend to fly my cartoon P38G and somehow survive to fly and fight another day.





AMEN

Offline Peyton

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 228
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2010, 10:00:03 AM »
You should try reading with some level of comprehension rather than just react and interject what you perceive to be factual...and if you're not going to make an attempt to comprehend, then don't bother replying.


Trying to add anything more in depth than picking a toon plane, taking off and stirring the stick is like Galileo convincing the Catholic church that the earth revolves around the sun.


I have an idea for you so you can enjoy and add some realism to the game in the meantime. How about your pilot has to take a physical every month before you pay your subscription dues.  An AH representative will come to your house and draw blood, collect your pee in a cup, weigh you, check your eyesight, and check your log book.  After the results come back you can or cannot fly for a month.  This will be repeated monthly so you can keep your flight status operable.

Sound good for realism to hold you over????

By the way...With all the hard work these modders do I don't know if I would refer to their work as "TOON PLANES".

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2010, 10:40:36 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 03:01:25 PM by Skuzzy »
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12398
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2010, 11:23:04 AM »
Why is it when someone makes any attempt to bring just one iota of something more realistic than grab a toonplane and become an instant pile-it ace, people (and I use that word loosely) around here have to exaggerate the idea to the point of being a*holes? Try thinking like an intelligent human once before you post something that illustrates a lack of intelligence.

We all know it's a friggin game...and it can be improved upon without going to extremes if intelligent people carefully consider the possibilities and the consequences of change implementations...and the only way to do that is with intelligent conversation.


The next time you diss someone for doing something "unrealistic" in the arenas or shoot someone's wishlist idea down because it's not "realistic"...remember you words of wannabe wisdom here.


Because many people use the word REALISM to mean more difficult. This is a great example of that use of the word. While you state on a theoretical level failure rate curves can be made with which I do not disagree,you then assume failure rate curves based on all conditions of flight for these planes could be made, and hence state that you are only after realism and want things changed.

Raster tries make the argument because things did fail in flight it is unrealistic to be able to run your plane at mill power all the time.

No one in this entire discussion has brought any realism to the argument. Has anyone found any real data on one plane ,what real faillure rates would be for any paticular plane in any specific condition sets?

When we did research on this topic and how to do the modeling. What we found was that the odds of your engine failing when running the complete flight at mill power was extremely low.We found test of engines being run at full WEP settings for 40 hours with no failures So how is it in any way realistic to make a plane fail every time when you fly continuously at mill settings?

Now consider what would really be needed to model engine temps and failures.
Lets speak only of engine temps, do you believe you can find data on even 10% of the plane set that gives real numbers that can be used for heating and cooling rates?

Now lets assume you could find these rates, next you would have to find failure rates based on accumulated and continuous runs at different RPM and temps and pressures.

So you go threw all this work, only to come out with that assume best condition plane, the failure rate is 1 chance for 50 hours of flight.

Mill settings were set where they were for a reason,they are NOT wep settings. They didn't choose pressures that would normally damage an engine with continuous use.

Now consider all of the above from a game play/immersion/fun view point. It could be argued that even an unrealistic need to watch temp could be immersive , but as far as realistic , which is the argument many are trying to make, it would not be any more realistic then what we have now. But I believe most people would not find it immersive but simply a pain in the but.

HiTech







Offline jdbecks

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1460
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2010, 11:28:00 AM »
It could be argued that even an unrealistic need to watch temp could be immersive , but as far as realistic , which is the argument many are trying to make, it would not be any more realistic then what we have now. But I believe most people would not find it immersive but simply a pain in the but.

HiTech


That is the exact reason why on IL2, RoF I turned off all advanced engine management as I find it a pain in the butt..Having not played WoP since the latest update you could not adjust the options for engine management..

PS. Hitech, click here..you know you want too  :noid
Click me

 :bolt:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 11:33:02 AM by jdbecks »
JG11

...Only the proud, only the strong...
www.JG11.org

Offline Peyton

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 228
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2010, 11:56:17 AM »
.

A happy medium has to be reached between realism and fun, I think AH manages it beautifully. If some of you don't think so, the next time you get shot down, cancel your account and I'd be happy to write a letter to your widow.
[/quote]

Amen

Offline RASTER

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2010, 12:02:13 PM »
Quote
But I believe most people would not find it immersive but simply a pain in the but.


Well Hitech its your decision to make. When you introduced Aces High, a lot of people came over here from Warbirds and many of those started in Air Warrior. Are these the same people who pay to play AH today. You know I truly sympathize with you because your MB seems to be overrun with folk like Guppy35, Peyton, Krusty, Karnak and so on who seem to have a dual agenda. These guys always seem to be intentionally ignorant when they hear things they don't want to hear and seem to think others don't notice it. INTENTIONALLY MISSLEADING.

AH is a nice combat simulation but to tell the truth it seems not to be growing or changing; with any of its original force or vitality. I had been away since maybe 2007 and I was rather disappointed that it seemed exactly the same as it did 3 years ago. I considered why this was and felt it must be your intent to keep the frame rate high. But now that I have seen what is happening on the MB I am beginning to realize what it is. My time here is for aircombat. I need to brush up my skills. I am not participating in the ground war and the taking of bases. Your film recorder is a work of genius and one of the reasons I am here. However, mine has stopped working and everytime I want to log in to play I have to restart my computer.

Quote
run at full WEP settings for 40 hours with no failures
Then why limit WEP to 5 minutes. Give us 40 hours.

Quote
find data on even 10% of the plane set

Only about 10% of the plane set is ever used..
Quote
Oh, and I don't want someone else deciding that I have no choice on what I fly, for which side, and what my mission is.

The problem was reading comprehension, same as we see here.


 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 12:30:31 PM by RASTER »

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2010, 12:33:52 PM »

Then why limit WEP to 5 minutes. Give us 40 hours.
 

Simply because WEP duration IS something for many aircraft that can be definitively measured. IE, the F4U only carried enough water for 5mins of WEP. I don't understand the reasoning for WEP restrictions on aircraft like the P-51 where they didn't have WEP as it exists in the game, but rather used higher RPM and MAP/etc. settings with no special injection liquid (water, nitrous, etc.), but I'm sure there was a very specific reason this was done.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23889
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2010, 12:49:31 PM »
Only about 10% of the plane set is ever used..

Utter nonsense. Where do you get this number from?
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline 1Boner

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2010, 01:20:38 PM »
Utter nonsense. Where do you get this number from?

Rut Ro--I think Raster is about to get a pie chart to the face!! :banana:
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23889
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2010, 01:21:10 PM »
 :lol
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: improved engine/aircraft model
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2010, 01:30:28 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 03:06:30 PM by Skuzzy »
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters