Different LW Country Setup?

[Karnak]

From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War.  Of course, all sorts of balance issues arise when you introduce this format but I'm wondering what people's take is instead of the standard 3 chess piece/all planes enabled setup.

Ar234B
B5N2
D3A1
Ju87D-3
Ju88A-4
Ki-67

vs.

A-20G
B-17G
B-24J
B-25C
B-25G
B-26B
Boston Mk III
Il-2 3M
Lancaster Mk III
SBD-5
TBM-3


Yeah, that looks fair.  Lets look at some of the more capable fighters:

A6M5b
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Bf109G-14
Bf109K-4
Bf110G-2
C.205
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-8
Fw190D-9
Ki-61-I-Tei
Ki-84-I-Ko
Me163B
Me262A-1
N1K2-J
Ta152H-1

vs

F6F-5
F4U-1
F4U-1A
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
F4U-4
FM2
Hurricane Mk IIc
La-5FN
La-7
Mosquito Mk VI
P-38J
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-40
P-47M
P-47N
P-51B
P-51D
Seafire Mk II
Spitfire Mk VIII
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire Mk XIV
Spitfire Mk XVI
Tempest Mk V
Typhoon Mk Ib
Yak-9T
Yak-9U

Ok, that isn't remotely fair either.


So, the best, most popular bombers and the best, most popular fighters are all concentrated on the Allied side.  Axis vs Allies in the LWA would simply result in the Axis being massively outnumbered.  The most popular fighter they can muster is the N1K2-J, a fighter that is massively out classed by numerous fighters on the Allied side in the hands of any player who has a clue how to deal with the N1K2-J.  Bomberwise the Axis has a choice between the somewhat survivable Ki-67 and the somewhat useful war load of the Ju88A-4 as compared to the Allied choice of the survivable B-17G or B-26B, the massive war load of the Lancaster Mk III, the halfway point of the B-24J.

The planeset and player base are not suitable to such an environment at all.  Sorry.

[LLogann]

Somebody forgot to mention the overwhelming advantage the Axis ground forces have...... Doesn't that make up for it?     

The planeset and player base are not suitable to such an environment at all.  Sorry.

[Karnak]

Somebody forgot to mention the overwhelming advantage the Axis ground forces have...... Doesn't that make up for it?     

No, not really.  Aircraft are quite cable of stopping ground offensives.

[grizz441]

Well, since you completely neglected my point with having to sort out game play balance issues first, I'm going to completely neglect your point about axis being vastly outnumbered due to noobs needing to fly their spits.  I appreciate you showing me how stupid of an idea this is in AH's current state, which I already have said multiple times in this thread.

[Karnak]

Well, since you completely neglected my point with having to sort out game play balance issues first, I'm going to completely neglect your point about axis being vastly outnumbered due to noobs needing to fly their spits.  I appreciate you showing me how stupid of an idea this is in AH's current state, which I already have said multiple times in this thread.

Your point is irrelevant as it isn't just something that can be sorted out.  Some of these problems are endemic and nothing HTC does could address them.

[Mister Fork]

The planeset and player base are not suitable to such an environment at all.  Sorry.

Karnak,

It's what the AvA staff do - we balance out the strengths and weaknesses of the Axis aircraft and select corresponding Allied aircraft accordingly.  We've been doing that since the CT first started almost a decade ago.

For example, if I enable the NIK2 I would match it up against the Spitfire VIII or La-5.  If I enabled the Bf 109F4 I would counter it with the Spitfire V.  And most AvA pilots know that although a Spitfire V can out-turn the dickens of a Bf 109, it can't catch it, out-run it or out-climb it. We also usually enable aircraft on a 1 to 1 basis. One fighter type each side and one bomber type except if we're running a scenario.

So, you could have a Axis vs Allies 1945 setup.

A6M5
Bf 109G-14
Bf 109K-4
Fw 190D-9
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Ki-84
Nik2

vs

F4U-1C
F6F
P-38L
P-51D
P-47M
P-47N
Spitfire XIV
Typhoon

It's not that lopsided

[Ghastly]

In a land far away and a long time ago, I flew a sim that decided to make changes to the Arena's. The existing MA became a mixed mode arena, where you would be fighting pilots who could choose to deliberately dumb down the flight mode. The only real mode only arena became the full time AvA Arena (up to this point, the MA had previously been 4 sided, MA-style capture-the-flag gameplay)   - a 2 sided, Axis vs Allies MA-style capture-the-flag gameplay.   This forced players to choose between flying the new AvA "Main" or to fly in the "Old Main" against pilots who might be using the fictional FM, forcing many people who really didn't want to to fly the "New" arena. Most of the arguments in this thread are reminiscent of the arguments made for doing so at that time over there, too. 

The AVA primary arena format was one of the things that ruined the sim.  It wasn't the only thing, but it sure did it's part to drive folks out.   The biggest problem for me personally was signing in night after night after night to find that the Axis were way way down in numbers, and gritting teeth and flying the Dark side when what I really wanted to do was fly the F4U.   Squads were torn apart by it, and eventually, a lot of players drifted away from the game.  Many of them are here these days.  GV's weren't nearly as large a part of the game as they are here, so the biggest problem was the discrepencies between the bombers, so an entirely new way of "bombing" was introduced, further increasing the "gaminess" of the sim.   An RPS had been in place since I'd started flying, but this introduced additional issues, as the early part of the war would see pilots flying Axis for their day in the sun, and then the rest of the month you would see the few dedicated + the few "align themselves with the underdogs rather than doing what they really want" against the many.

HTC, I pray to God - saw what happened there, and it will never happen here.

A 2 sided Axis vs Allies arena is fun - for a little while. Day after day it's the pits.  Add in stupid developers, and it hoovers dirty pond water. 

<S>

[Karnak]

Mister Fork,

That is how the AvA works, yes.  What the OP was talking about was the LWA though, which is a much different beast than the AvA.

Just one example, but the Axis are totally unable to run effective late war carrier operations in AH as compared to the Allies.  There is no selection of aircraft that changes that.


I understand what the OP is saying, it just won't work and can't work for many reasons.  Even if you add the He177A-5 and H8K2 'Emily' in order to give the Axis a couple heavy bombers it still wouldn't work.  The P-51 and Spitfire are simply too popular, and that cascades into people picking the side with numbers to avoid being ganged, which in turn leads to fewer subscriptions of German, Japanese and Italian aircraft fans and follows with fewer subscription of Allied aircraft fans due to lack of action and boredom.  Nothing HTC does, as long as they are trying to make the aircraft behave like they did, can change that.

[Masherbrum]

Mister Fork,

That is how the AvA works, yes.  What the OP was talking about was the LWA though, which is a much different beast than the AvA.

Just one example, but the Axis are totally unable to run effective late war carrier operations in AH as compared to the Allies.  There is no selection of aircraft that changes that.

I understand what the OP is saying, it just won't work and can't work for many reasons.  Even if you add the He177A-5 and H8K2 'Emily' in order to give the Axis a couple heavy bombers it still wouldn't work.  The P-51 and Spitfire are simply too popular, and that cascades into people picking the side with numbers to avoid being ganged, which in turn leads to fewer subscriptions of German, Japanese and Italian aircraft fans and follows with fewer subscription of Allied aircraft fans due to lack of action and boredom.  Nothing HTC does, as long as they are trying to make the aircraft behave like they did, can change that.

Correct, some are obviously trying to herd more people into the AvA, rather than deal with the Original Post and stay on topic.   The AvA used to interest me, I don't even give it a thought anymore.

[Babalonian]

From an immersion perspective, I think it'd be really fun to have Axis vs Allies in the Late War.  Of course, all sorts of balance issues arise when you introduce this format but I'm wondering what people's take is instead of the standard 3 chess piece/all planes enabled setup.

I personaly like the freedom for players to choose what they want to fly, even when you know you'll be flying mostly against LW beasts like the spixteen.

But I'm with a lot of other players who feel like they want some real differences between LWO and LWB, and more than just the map.

I like to push my idea that we make one of the LW arenas a "hardcore" and the other a "classic", but it would call for ranking players in each arena seperate from the other LW arena.  Keep the servers on different maps, but make one kinda like bumper-bowling for fun and the other more competitive and for the title.  We can double the fuel burn rate and even the ammo count in one, make the FB and ammo 1.0 in the other.  Enable KS, disable FF and set enemy icons to apear up to 6k in one; disable KS, enable FF (maybe even have score/rank penalties for it) and set enemy icons to 2k max in the other.

[Lusche]

I personaly like the freedom for players to choose what they want to fly, even when you know you'll be flying mostly against LW beasts like the spixteen.

But I'm with a lot of other players who feel like they want some real differences between LWO and LWB, and more than just the map.

I like to push my idea that we make one of the LW arenas a "hardcore" and the other a "classic", but it would call for ranking players in each arena seperate from the other LW arena.  Keep the servers on different maps, but make one kinda like bumper-bowling for fun and the other more competitive and for the title.  We can double the fuel burn rate and even the ammo count in one, make the FB and ammo 1.0 in the other.  Enable KS, disable FF and set enemy icons to apear up to 6k in one; disable KS, enable FF (maybe even have score/rank penalties for it) and set enemy icons to 2k max in the other.

Odd thing is, that in some ways FB 1.0 will make the arena even more unrealistic... unless you double the distances between fields too

But anyway, there will be one main problem: Such an arena without KS and  short icon range will be almost empty very quick... and where do the people go when the "easy" LW arena is full?

[LLogann]

Is it too early to say IN on this thread?

 

[Lusche]

Is it too early to say IN on this thread?

 

Yes.

[LLogann]

Well back to topic then.......  I have to assume the FB1 is going to have a heavy perk value..... And I do mean HEAVY.  And I think you would agree Meister?

Yes.

[jimson]

The AvA concept is one that has limited appeal. Those who like it really like and then there are those that want any plane at any time.

Forcing an AvA set up in the LW arenas will never work. HTC would never hear of it.

The best thing to do for those who want immersion is to work on ways to improve and repopulate AvA.

Next set-up will have specific nightly objectives. At least there will be goals and things to accomplish in there.

I fly there almost exclusively now. When it's empty I practice bombing etc.

There is a core group of AvA enthusiasts and they are always racking their brains on how to get it going strong.

Those involved are doing their best to find the formula that works, imaginative suggestions are always welcome.

I intend to begin promoting AvA Mondays again, we had some momentum going, but
two consecutive snapshot conflicts helped kill it.

It's difficult.