Flying with no-spring sticks? Thoughts?

[Krusty]

I was reading up on something related to my joystick and ran across a reference to the FFB version now using FF, and having no spring-to-center.

Got me thinking about non-AH flight sims. In real life there's no center spring, you just shift it a bit and that's your new center. Aces High models trim off of "just shift the stick a bit" and I really appreciate the subtle beauty in this feature.

But other games, like IL2, TW, and some others, map trim strictly on what was trimmable on the plane, meaning no aileron or rudder trim, or whatever. That means constant stick pressure (which is highly annoying) to stay level and get what you want.

Some folks claim it's accurate, I just say it's ignorant.

Anyways, so what about removing the spring from your stick, or using FFB sticks with the FF disabled?

Who's tried this? Is it more beneficial? Or does it just tire your arm out more? Or is it not so much the spring is the issue, as the stick still has that center dead area where the axes cross?

And if anybody has tried it, how about aces high? How does it work here? We've got a different setup regarding stick centering and trim.


This topic may have come up a time or two in the past, but I couldn't recall and results (only "somebody should try this" talk), and nothing in recent memory. I started a new thread instead of mucking around with the iffy AH search tool.

[Ghastly]

I have in the past, (caveat MSFF stick with forces off, and for a while with an X52 that I'd modified - but the sim I was flying at the time was WarBirds). 

It was doable but it got ugly, partly because you can't use autopilot at all, and partly because it's REALLY tough not over-controlling with no feedback of any sort from the stick. Blacking out was an issue too if I recall correctly, because without the visual cues it was tough to center the stick well enough to not go back into blackout again pretty much instantly upon coming out. There was no impact at all on any "dead area" in my case, but that might change if you used a different stick with the springs removed. 

Since folks do learn to fly effectively with the mouse which also lacks any feedback, it might be a case of needing to spend more time than I did to adjust to it, but I didn't intuitively feel as though that were the case - the mouse "stays put" if you aren't moving it, and the stick moved enough to be problematic unless I was concentrating foremost on holding it where I wanted it.   

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[SIK1]

My stick has a broken spring or something on the forward movement of the stick i.e. if I push the stick forward it will not return to center the three other axes work fine.
I would prefer that it self centered. It can be slightly annoying at times, but not enough for me to open up the stick to see what is wrong, and I even have a spare gameport stick for parts.

[FLS]

Krusty you seem to be asking about flying with a floppy stick with no resistance which, as you know, is no more realistic than spring centering, it's just more trouble.

I use FFB without spring centering. It feels more like real flying. AH does not model the change in stick position from change in trim but you feel pressure on the stick unless you trim it off and the pressure increases with speed and G loading.The sims I've tried that model trim changing the stick position do not model trim forces. Maybe you can't have both at once.

If I release the stick, Logitech G940, it "parks" near the center so autopilot is not a problem even hands off.

Logitech claims that the MS FFB API was written for older less precise FFB sicks and that creates a larger center deadzone with the G940 which a new API could eliminate. I've read that using the stick with current racing sims demonstrates this but I haven't tried it yet.

My modded Cougar is just about perfect but I haven't plugged it in since I got the G940. The FFB, even in it's current state, adds that much to sim flying.

[Krusty]

Interesting term you use there, it "parks" the stick... On second thought, I think I like that idea better.

I guess what would be best is to have a stick with no springs-to-center motion, but when you take a hand off, it'll have just enough friction to stay put.

Does FFB have some mode similar to that? I originally was thinking of "floppy stick" flying, but ghastly's got some good points.

[FLS]

The G940 has a sensor on the stick that your hand covers. It's like a deadman's switch. Uncovering the sensor turns the FFB off and parks the stick. You can tape over the sensor and let trim pressure hold it but I haven't experimented with that in AH. With FFB turned off in software the motors supply constant resistance which prevents the stick flopping. With FFB on and the A/C sitting on the runway the stick has virtually no resistence. As you increase speed taking off you feel the resistence increase as you would in a real A/C. It's very cool.   

[Krusty]

I'm not all that interested in the resistance. Matter of fact, that turns me off (I'd just end up smashing the thing to pieces in anger later on, trust me)

But I'd like something where it'll stay where you leave it -- like a rollerball mouse, if you can see what I'm trying to describe. Pretend there's a mouse rollerball with a stick attached to the ball. No spring back to center, but wherever you leave the stick last, it'll stay put until you pick it up again.

That's what I'm thinking of now.

[FLS]

You want a friction stick without sticktion. 

The advantage to trim FFB is that this is similar to what you feel flying. In a desktop simulation it's the only way to feel the G load on your A/C.

[FLS]

Krusty both CH and Saitek make what you want. It's called a yoke. 

[Kazaa]

HiTech > every other flight sim dev.

[Ghosth]

Have fun trying to learn how to fly that way Krusty.

Now a load cell stick that doesn't move, but just reacts to foot pounds of pressure, that is what I'd try if I had the $$$.

In real life airflow over the control surfaces is what centers the stick.
On the ground it can flop around all over the place.
That is what trim tabs are for. So you can "trim" the stick, so the plane is straight and level without having to hold 10 - 30 lbs of force in one direction or another.

I suppose in theory you could build a stick that varys spring pressure (Return to center) according to airspeed.

But a pure floppy stick is just a pain in the posterior if you ask me.
Never centered, unable to use autopilot in any of its forms.

[Tigger29]

Now a load cell stick that doesn't move, but just reacts to foot pounds of pressure, that is what I'd try if I had the $$$.

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/saitek-x65f-control-system.asp/simulation/joysticks/

[Ghosth]

I know Price is way out of my reach until I win the lottery.

[Masherbrum]

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/saitek-x65f-control-system.asp/simulation/joysticks/

Look who makes it. 

[Ghastly]

Interesting term you use there, it "parks" the stick... On second thought, I think I like that idea better.

I guess what would be best is to have a stick with no springs-to-center motion, but when you take a hand off, it'll have just enough friction to stay put.

Does FFB have some mode similar to that? I originally was thinking of "floppy stick" flying, but ghastly's got some good points.

No, what he's referring to is a function that's built into every FF stick I've seen - and one that I disabled on mine pretty much as the first mod to them.

If you take your hand off the stick, it goes to a "default" tension that stands the stick upright in the center position. This is I would presume to keep the stick from flailing about in response to the feedback when the user forgets he's playing a game and decides to pick his nose or whatever.

The problem I had with this feature was that the way they worked was via an optical sensor that attempted to determine if your hand either broke a beam of light, or reflected it back (depending on the stick design).  Either way, if it thought your hand wasn't there, it would engage the autocenter.  The problem with that was, it would do so regularly if you just shifted your hand a bit - and especially with the Logitech Wingman Force  (the original one that was about 10 lbs of motorized FF stick, not the crappy 3D stick they put out now) what would happen would be that I'd be in a dive, with about 10 to 15 lbs of force on the stick, and my hand would move slightly, and it would suddenly go to about a pound and a half - and I'd slam the stick to the stops and then some.

The MS wasn't nearly as bad, because it's maximum force was about 1/3 of that of the Logitech, but it was still extremely disconcerting when it would happen.

But either way, take your hand off, and it's not going to "sticky" where it is like you are envisioning - every FF stick I've ever seen is going to autocenter.

I will say this though - the best experience I have ever had with a flight sim was when using the original Wingman Force.  You really do get a lot better sense of what you are doing to your aircraft with a properly implemented FF system. 

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