190 versions and thoughts

[Hristo]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:

By the way, any debater can tell you that attacking the messenger instead of the message is a pretty good sign that the attacker has lost the debate.    


B]

Do not flatter yourself, boys.

It was you Spit types who hijacked this thread all called us Luftwaffles/Luftwobbles whatever. In your words we don't walk the walk, but talk the talk. Is this constructive posting ?

Constructive statement follows:

Dora is better than Spit XIV. Spit XIV can't even be compared to 262.

[jmccaul]

My point about the clipped wings was that it would give a fairs speed boost (i'm not sure of the exact speed increase but for example by changing to a multi-ejector exhaust and removing carburettor ice gaurd you could add 15 mph to the speed).

  As such why did the RAF not only use clipped wing spits late in the war if speed was so much more important than turn (i.e. they did sacrifice some speed for turn ability by not having clipped wings)

  One more point is  should fighters be designed for experts or green pilots because the most immediate tactics to new pilots are to turn. (Yes even FW's i'm sure we've all herad the account of the Ta 152 winning a knife fight with the tempest - if that was a spit 14 the Ta pilot would be dead)

  Obviously certain pilots have certain tactics and therefore some planes are better for them but if your talking about good design you've got to take the dweebs into account to.

   Thats why i like the spit as in almost any situation it still holds alot of advatages and you can switch from energy fighting to knife fighting as the situation demands. This affords you a margin of error while dogfighting.

   When first flying the FW how many times do you die because you made a mistake and put yourself in a situation you shouldn't put the FW in. With the spit your more likley to get away with it. (and in real life you only get to make one mistake )

To sum up why i like the spit :

  Because in almost any mark with planes from the same era (allied and axis) you usually have 2 out of speed,climb and turn over your opponent.  


And it's so much prettier than all those horrible radial types  
 

[Hristo]

LOL, believe me, some Spit types put themselves in situations not even F 16 can handle  

[Karnak]

Sorry, shouldn't have posted this.

Sisu

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-23-2000).]

[Kieren]

For the record...

I am not a "Luftwaffe" advocate any more than I am USA, Italian, Japanese or British. I do fly everything.  

My comment is that topics tend to start specific, then someone pops in and takes a tangent. Often this happens when someone has an agenda. As you see, the original thought of the thread was a comparison between different 190 types. Next thing you know we are talking about how the LW guys "talk the talk but won't walk the walk".

Frankly, I hope you guys get your MkXIV. I'll fly it, along with every other plane in the set. I hope Hristo gets his 262 as well (which I will also fly). But tell me something, how does this help the guy trying to compare 190 variants? Just because the word "Spitfire" appears in text doesn't mean we need to open that can of worms again.  

[Pongo]

The A5 is armed with 2 151s and 2 (Swiss designed) Mgffs.
The cowl machine guns are 7.92 mm.

Two faced FW fans....
The Brit fighter fan club does exactly the same thing. Hyping there planes or whineing about them on any given day. The US iron croud and any given pilot will do the same thing from day to day. This is probably historical.

If we wanted a plane with the lightness of the A5 but the real firepower of the A8 then the A6 would have been chosen.  The A5 was the absolute schourge of the 1943 eastern front and channel front. It is the epitomome of the radial engine FW in regards its effectivenss vs its contemporaries. That is why it is in the game.

Turn rate may not be very important for boucing helpless victims. But I find it very usefull for getting that fireing solution to blast some one off my buddies 6. So I fly the FW light in most cases. Of course I would never bother to carry the MGFFs on an A5. And the D9 will only be available light I would imagine.

[Hristo]

Do not forget 190 instanteneous turnrate. At 350 IAS 190A-8 can turn inside Spit on the deck.

[RAM]

Hehehehe...I knew it...I knew it...this exploded in flames!!!      

oh ,damn...my beer is over! I'll go to the fridge and take another one!!!

(and I'll make some more popcorn)

[Vermillion]

Well I don't think you can rightly call me a Luftwaffe supporter in the least, but I am one of the people who thinks the Spit Mk XIV will be extremely unbalancing.

Personally I think I am pretty much non-nationalistic in this game. Thru most of the beta I flew, and was an ardent supporter of the N1K2 (check my past posts on it), thru most of the pay to play tours, I fly the Pony mostly. I have very vocally advocated the La7, Yak-9U, Ki-84, P-63, and the P-47N. So I guess that makes me a "Russo/Japanese American Psycophant".

But I won't tell you that in RL, I am about 75% descended from Prussians and Bavarians (Hein, Wagner, and Beckner family names), lest you also call me a Luftwobble.... ooops  

You guys can call each other names and yell back and forth about "My ancestors had better planes than your ancestors" all yah want.   My concern is in the game.

So why would I advocate a Fw190D9, and not a Spit XIV? Because the Dora has strengths and weakness's, that can be exploited. In my opinon the Spit XIV doesn't.

Yep you just got me to admitt it. For a pure air to air role, I don't think it got any better than a late mark Spitfire.

Jmmcaul said it best:

When first flying the FW how many times do you die because you made a mistake and put yourself in a situation you shouldn't put the FW in. With the spit your more likley to get away with it. <snip> Because in almost any mark with planes from the same era (allied and axis) you usually have 2 out of speed,climb and turn over your opponent.

In the Spit XIV you got all 3. And if you believe some reports the damn thing even turns as well as the Mk IX. <Points back to all the AGW posts about how WB's Spit XIV is the "one of the worst modeled", while it is one of the most dominate aircraft in the arena>

So why would anyone fly anything but the XIV? Not to sound arrogant, but the majority of pilots are nothing but sheep, who will follow the pack, and fly nothing but the plane that racks up the most kills.

And you know what.... *Baaaa* *Baaaa* *Baaaa* I would be one of those sheep myself, because I am not going to let myself get killed repeatedly by Johnny Newbie in an aircraft that can do it all performance wise.

If you want proof, just look at the arena today at the number of Spits. Now you want to add 40 mph to it too?

Sorry, but I dont' want to see what would effectively become a one plane sim, to all but those diehard few.

So Nashwan and Karnak, no offense intended, but you can scream, yell, and gnash your teeth all you want about "Luftwobbles" and "1942 Tech", buy most of us just aren't gonna buy it.

Those of us that have years and years of experience in online flightsims know exactly what an aircraft like the XIV will do.

It will ruin it for just about everyone but the Spit fanatics.

Ok rant over....<dons flame retardent suit>

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:
Do not forget 190 instanteneous turnrate. At 350 IAS 190A-8 can turn inside Spit on the deck.

Yup Hristo...but with A5 is easier to get those 350 Mph   ,as it accelerates better...and the snapturn will be the same.

You asked why should be A5 better than A8?. I answer: because EVERYTHING but firepower...and 2x20mm arent that bad,too isnt it?  

In the "pirate" matter   . For Karnak and for anyone else. I am really doubtful that Hristo is scared by Spit XIV. I, for me, am not scared by it...if well modelled.

What do I mean by "well modelled"?. Easy, model the Griffon's torque and low speed Spit handling will suck as it did in RL, requiring constant triming and rudder input...something that SpitIX doesnt need at all.
 
Model the Spitfire's bad handling at high speed and it will suck ,as it did in RL.

So you get a plane that at low speed feels a lot the torque of its engine, and one that over 350 mph is like a piece of rock. Roll problems and hard controls.

I dont fear that kind of plane. Bring it as it was and I'll kill em as I kill SpitsIX today.

Fw190D9 on the other hand retains its wonderful handling at all speeds, rollrate, and turns better than a A8...it accelerates very well too. If we add MW50 to it (and we should do it), then we have a plane to be scared of. It may be not the better climber nor the faster...but it still is like a powered-up light Fw190A8...and if you dont fear such a plane then you arent very wise  


I fear SpitXIV in good and expert hands...but those hands arent a lot...I never fear a plane I fear the one that rides it. Bring the Spit XIV. Bring the D9. But bring them with all they caracteristics. And we'll see then if the spit is so problematic  


------------------
Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-23-2000).]

[Karnak]

This was an Fw190 thread.  I have removed my posts, at least as far as I could.  Sorry guys.

As far as the Fw190 goes, I always prefered the A-4 or A-5.  But that is probably due to my style; I need a lighter aircraft.  Focke-Wulfs are not my expertise, so I shall leave this thread to those whose specialty is the Fw.

By the way, Vermillion, my ancestors were Finnish, not English.

Sisu

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-23-2000).]

[Kieren]

Karnak-

By no means do you need to remove a post! My comments were never intended towards that end...

Lest this board becomes a place of "post-then-flame" it just seems advisable to try to stay on topic with threads. My opinion, that's all, and it means nothing more than that.  

Nothing wrong with lobbying for the Spit XIV, or any other bird. Still, it doesn't have to be inserted in every a/c thread.  

Perhaps what we need is another thread to get this stuff out...

[jmccaul]

 As you can probably tell i like my spits and would go as far as to say it's the best point defence/interceptance air carft in WW2 as such you could say it makes perhaps the ultimate arena plane (particularly the 14).

  As such i think Verm has a point the spit 14 probably would be the most used plane in the arena perhaps to the point when it would be desirable not to have it.

    The RAF though did not only use spitfires as it really only did one job so rather than exclude the spit 14 i'd like to see hitechcreations change the arena dynamics planes would only be available in historical proportions and also only available for their historical missions.

    With the new mission builder i think it would be an excellent idea to assign planes to players based on what mission they wanted to perform. Also it would be good if the more people participating in the mission the more likley you were to get the premier plane for that duty.

[Nashwan]

 

Originally posted by Hristo: (First post of thread)
On the other hand, Spitfire was just an outdated design. Sure more powerful engines were introduced, but the plane could only count on mistakes of enemy pilots or surprise to be effective (any Dora could simply dive away from Spit XIV). WW2 air combat was rarely a 1 on 1 duel, where Spitfire could beat any plane. It was all hit and run, and some plane designers just knew better than Mitchell some 10 years earlier  

Comments, please ?

How was my mentioning the Spit XIV hijacking the thread? If Hristos starts a thread and I reply to one of the topics he raises in his first post, surely that is staying on-topic. if it isn't I am genuinely sorry, and I apologise. But I really though I was responding to something he had raised.

As to bringing in the Spit XIV, it was my first ever post on this board. I have since learned just how good the planes was, and I am no longer asking for it. I would like some newer British planes, like the Spit IX HF and LF, which could be dadded with very little effort, and the Tempest, which I thnik is needed.

I haven't really asked for the Spit XIV, I am just trying to point out a certain hypocrisy in Luftwaffe threads, where they constantly tell us that their planes were the best, yet wouldn't unbalance the arena, while the Spitfire is a poor plane but can't be allowed in because it is too good. If somebody makes obviously contradictory comments like that, I find it hard to restrain myself. In future I will try harder.

[Vermillion]

Karnak, my whole point was that, it doesn't matter what nationality or ancestry you are to me  

I like aircraft some aircraft from every nationality that particpated in WWII for their sheer beauty engineering wise. Yep, I'm a geek.

What bothers me is what happens in the arena. And any of the guys that have played thru the "AW Fw190 Spindweebs period", the "WB's P-38L like a UFO period", or even  the "WB's pre-800 lb Dora period" will tell you how miserable a one plane sim is.

Sorry if it sounded like a personal attack, I apologize.  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"