190 versions and thoughts

[Karnak]

Vermillion, I wasn't feeling like I was attacked by you, I was just providing some more info about myself.

I remember flying in WBs, using the MkXIV Spit when everyone and his dog seemed to be flying Cannon Hawgs (This is not a reference to AH, please don't start this topic here).  I died lots to them.

Sisu

[SnakeEyes]

Funked sayeth:

"If you look at all WW2 fighters you will notice one thing: as time went on, new versions were always heavier."

Technically that might be true... but the P-51H was a lightweight version of the P-51D (powered by the Merlin V-1650-9 which I don't have specs on).  You could also consider the F8F-1 to be the successor to the F6F and it was a lighter airframe mated to essentially the same engine to my understanding.

Verm also thinketh that the Spit XIV doesn't belong in AH because it has no weaknesses... yes it does... short legs and nasty torque effects.... I also suspect that it has high stick forces at the higher end the speed range, and that planes with maneuvering flaps could turn with it long enough to get the kill at the higher speeds.

Hristo, stop being a flight sim bigot.  Griping at someone because they "don't play AH" is a personal attack in lieu of having good rebutting evidence to what they say.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 05-23-2000).]

[JENG]

Ram said :"What do I mean by "well modelled"?. Easy, model the Griffon's torque and low speed Spit handling will suck as it did in RL, requiring constant triming and rudder input...something that SpitIX doesnt need at all.

Model the Spitfire's bad handling at high speed and it will suck ,as it did in RL.

So you get a plane that at low speed feels a lot the torque of its engine, and one that over 350 mph is like a piece of rock. Roll problems and hard controls."

Heheheheh just call it G10 version 2 and be gone with it   If it's realy like that alot of newbies will be very surprised when they fly one  


NOT AFRAID... NOT AFRAID AT ALL  

Bee

[Kieren]

...assuming all of that is true, which is assuming a lot.

What is the consensus on the 190A vs 190D? Anything I have read says better climb, dive, speed and turn for the 190D. Short of firepower, the D-9 is flat out better than the 190A.

[Hristo]

Snake Eyes, I did not mention his playing or not playing AH until that same person stated that us Luftwaffe pilots talk the talk but do not walk the walk ! Talk about hypocrisy !

And you expect me not to answer that ? But now, stop infecting this thread.

Back to original topic:

In first post I mentioned all the reasons why I believe Dora is better than Spit XIV. And why would 262 be even better, only exception being guns which need closer range.

Read first post (dive, deck speed, cockpit visibility). You know what is the best plane in AH right now, IMO ? P 51. For the same reasons. Followed by 190A-8. F4U lacks good 6 view, but is generally better than 190 in other respects. Typhoon would ehter that category too, but dive manuverability and evil flight characteristics degrade the plane too much, IMO.

Bring the Spit XIV. I said that before. 109 can deal with it. 190 needs D version to do it. But in arena rarely do engagements last long that Spitfire advantages come to play.

What can lone Spitfire at 15k do against 5 Doras ? Pretty much nothing. What can lone Dora do at same alt with 5 Spitfire XIVs ? It can survive  

For example, I have flown G-10 most times in the arena. Although I had just the advantages over P 51 the Spit XIV had over Dora, I was very frustrated fighting it. Only when P 51 pilot fought in his plane the wrong way I had chance to down it. The same will happen to Spit XIV drivers when they fight the Dora.



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 05-23-2000).]

[funked]

If anybody wants to talk about Fw 190 variants, let me know...

We already had a good Spit XIV thred a few weeks ago, you can scroll down to read that.

[SnakeEyes]

Didn't see any LW slam (other than the truncated version in the post)... but Karnak apparently edited out his posts (which is why I didn't see anything on that order).

In any event, I made that remark because I've see that as your response a few times now.  It just agitates the natives on both sides and ain't real productive.

Getting back to the topic at hand, what do real LW pilots say about the whole issue?  Did they largely prefer the earlier 190s over the A8?  I do know that they vastly preferred the Dora over the A series.  Probably one of the biggest factors is performance speed at alt, which is where the A8 really suffered.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Hristo]

Snake Eyes, 1 time called few times is demagogic  

Some of greatest authorities in field of fighter combat agree that 190 was superior to its counterparts, particularly Spitfire. While it could still be outturned by one in a knifefight ! Seems that low speed stallfights from WW1 are not the way of WW2 combat.

When Goering asked Galland what does he need and he asked for a squadron of Spitfires, he actually admitted he did it only to annoy Goering. In his own words, Galland considered German planes better. At that time it was 109E vs Spitfire I.

I believe I remember Robert Shaw mentioning Fw 190D-9 as his choice of best WW2 fighter.


If elliptical wing was such a superior design, why didn't Kurt Tank put one of 1930 Heinkel elliptical wings on his plane ? There was obvioulsy a reason.

After few months of playing in multiplayer arena, I think I can recognize some of the most important plane characteristics for air combat. Hint - it ain't turn rate.

It is the ability to make quick kill and get away.

A-8 can kill quicker with its almost double firepower of A-5 (MG FF being left out). But if you look at 4 MG 151/20 as an overkill for anti fighter work and 2 MG 151/20 as just about enough, I am ready to give A-5 the advantage. This might be just the case if one would look at A-8 as a dedicated bomber killer.

Properly flown Dora would be unbeatable for any Spitfire XIV. If Dora has alt, the best Spitifre can count on is a mistake of Dora pilot. And even then, Dora would probably get away.

Take 5 experienced pilots in Doras against 5 experienced pilots in Spitfire XIVs. Let's say they meet at 10k. If Spits have E advantage, Doras simply would not engage. They would dive away and live to fight another day. If Doras have E advantage, Spits would have to fight. They can not dive away. A clear advantage, and a big one. That simple.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

This is funny, You asked which one was preferred. Well I can actually answer that question somewhat. Let me explain:

My Great grandpa (whom we all called opa) was a mechanic during WWII from 1941 to 1944 (winter) then again he served at the end of the war. While he never ever discussed his years in the war when he died 3 years ago we recieved both his diaries and his photographs. He was an amatuer photographer and we have almost 300 photos of his taken between 1943 and 1945, some of the mechanics and units, some of planes. Many of planes actually  
 Recently some members of my family have been doing a family millenium project and transferring his diary into English and recording it. This NOT easy as he was from Manheim, and his dialect is bizarre to translate correctly if german is your second language.
  One of the things that has caught my attention was that he recorded opinions of planes when they came into service along the front. As he served on the eastern front all except the last year of the war he DID record the opinions on the 190 variants.
  Along the eastern front the Stuka was gradually being replaced by the 190 as a ground attack plane. Opa's diary indicates that pilots were on the whole very unsatisfied with the early 190's for bombing and attacking ground targets. He records many disagreements with pilots about bomb racks, accuracy and effectivness of early 190's. Later when they flew the A8 the pilots were VERY happy with the plane. They liked the added ground fire protection, the extra guns and improved ordinance. They also highly approved of it's speed. Opa, by the way liked the A8 more too, it ended up coming back to him with less holes in it   He hated Stuka's right from his first diary. He was injured in november of 1944 when the cold weather weakened a support allowing a Stuka to collapse on his leg. This did not appear to improve his opinion of them !

BTW I will be trying to scan some of his pictures over the next few months. Some I believe may have been rare photo's. Many unfortunatly are hard to make out, apparently opa was very amatuer when he started taking pictures. However included are many many photos of various 190's stuka's and other planes I cannot readily identify. Many are of Russian planes as well.

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If your in range, so is the enemy.

 

[This message has been edited by Sorrow[S=A] (edited 05-24-2000).]

[RAM]

Hiya sorrow!!

Hey you have a real treasure in your hands!! that kind of diary and documentation is the kind of something I really pray I can some day see with my own eyes, to read hand-written first-hand reports on WWII fighters...and even more if they are on Fw190!!!!


note that your Granddad wrote on Pilot's opinion on Fw190 regarding ground attack. And I must agree,fw190A8 is better Ground attack plane than A5 would be, because its better weaponry and armor...

you refer to faulty and problematick bomb racks. Remember that Fw190 was designed as a fighter not fighter bomber, and I understand that the first adaptations could have some problems.

Also please note that Fw190s engaged on ground attack were mostly F and G series...maybe some A too...but A was mainly a fighter plane not jabo.

As I believe, first pilots converted from Stuka to Fw190 had a bad opinion of their planes, regardless of its problems with bomb racks. They were used to slow,killer punch and 6-defended (reargunner) Stukas, and they converted to a lightling jabo with 2x20mm guns (not 37mm certainly)...and they had no rear gunner, lack that they ,it seems,found hard to get used to.
I have readed several accounts on that matter and I think that at first nearly all Schlatch pilots on eastern front were real unhappy with the change...until they realized the strongs of the fw190...and the fact that after releasing the bombload they could fight the russian planes instead of turning away to give the rear gunner an arc of fire.

On mechanical matters I dont know...but I used to think that ground personnel was becoming mad with the BMW801 engine because its mechanical computer, seems it was devilish to maintain...did your granddad put anything into his diary about that? What did he thought on that matter? please write it here...FEED ME!!!  


One last note...we are here discussing Fw190A5 as better or worse fighter than Fw190A8. In Jabo roles I'd always pick A8 over A5, all day   . So, in fact, we agree  

Thanks for the input sorrow. I hope you keep on putting some of your Opa's diary stuff here in the board. I am mighty interested in the matter.

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Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

   

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-24-2000).]

[pzvg]

First off when you build a plane's armor up and increase it's firepower so it can attack massive bomber formations, you are not making a better fighter, you have built a specialized aircraft 190A8, A5 and A6's were last pure fighter FW's and they match up against all comers, every plane has strengths and faults, that's why they come with pilots and btw this "luftwobble" "sissyfire" toejam needs to stop you boys have a problem, go to the con step into the alley and settle it, 'cuz a bunch of supposedly grown men arguing like my 8 year old over the superior performance of a museum piece is annoying to say the least.
Sorrow, what was your Opa's name? my family is from Mannheim, it would be interesting to see if they knew each other (my Opa was in the wehrmacht)

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Nath-BDP]

Word

[SnakeEyes]

Hristo... I think your analysis is a bit simplistic.  For example, the 190A5 might be a better aircraft in terms of air to air combat with another fighter aircraft than the A8, based on its better powerloading and higher top speed.  Whereas the A8 would have been a more capable bomber killer than the A5.  Whereas the D9 was a better high altitude fighter than either the A5 or A8(and the D9 also reminds us that more firepower isn't necessarily the answer, as it typically had less firepower than the A8).

In terms of the comment we were discussing   ... You said it to me once as well... so that makes two times, and I swear I've seen that comment one other time.  So 3 = a few.  And even though I = demogogue, that is not true in the context of this particular discussion.  

[jmccaul]

Whats the difference between 190's choosing not to engage by diving and spits choosing not to engage by climbing away (apart from ending up at a higher energy state)

    Also you must remember it's not just experts who fly the plane.

 And if you dive every time you see fighters who are above you your soon going to run out of height and therefore e and one thing you don't want in a FW is to be low on e.

P.S. If you never make mistakes you can't lose.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Thanks RAM, translating this has meant a great deal to my family, many felt they never really knew him while he was alive, this is a sort of glimpse into him we never knew existed.

  While techinical information is abundant through his journal, for obvious reasons it has not been translated yet. Technical and mechanical words are often almost impossible to decipher from longhand unless you have an idea of what he is writing about. For now the main work has been on parts of the diary dealing with people and events around him. It also concentrates upon 1944&45, these are in the best condition (they were not dragged around in the field, and opa's writing became better after the winter of '43.). The part I read about the 190's is from these portions, mostly a notation of a conversation between pilots upon the arrival and refitting of several new ones. Mixed with some earlier portions where he mentioned problems with the bomb racks, inaccuracy complaints and difficulties pilots were having. He noted these down as a way to jog his memory as he thought of ideas to correct them or adjustments that could be made.

  Two things that are interesting to look at from what I have here. One is a side comment I will post from what I have:
-Diary of Helmut Kern-
last recorded date: april 3 1945
13 pages from that mark.
-
Werner and I have been working all day on preparing the new FW that arrived tuesday. We expect them to be ready by sunday but they want them now. Work is so slow with these new ones as the [Injector? Pressured?] bottle has to be removed and [system? cable?] turned off before they can be used. The Engines on these ones do not sound correct either I think I will have to replace some of the plugs and wires before we let them run full. At least the mes. have new bottles for shmindt and the officers.
-

I am totally guessing here. So don't take me as a bible  
But it sounds like the 190's they recieved had either GM-1 or MW50 installed that they removed and saved for 109's. Unfortunatly he rarely bothered to note versions or types (A,G or F etc etc)

The other is one my dad was faxed yesterday. It appears that in 1943 he met Hartmann. I won't even TRY to quote this one entirely. I don't even have it in front of me  

What he said was that Hartmann flew his plane back to their field camp to be repaired after being fired upon in a combat mission. Opa described him as a quiet sombre mood who spoke in monotones. That night they broke out some liquer to drink with him and he told them many many stories and appeared to cheer up greatly. It seems that he lost one of his pilots that morning in the engagement his plane was shot up in. After the others went to sleep Hartmann stayed up drinking much longer. In the morning they found he had crawled under is plane to sleep, after apparently spending many hours repainting the name of his plane over and over again on the side of the plane. When he awoke he left without saying much to anyone and Opa never had a chance to meet him again. Opa thought him a very odd man who became very intense and frightening when telling stories!

Pzvg- My Opa's name was Helmut Kern.
After the war he returned to Manheim for a few years, then moved to northern germany to work for a brick plant.
  Unfortunatly I cannot tell you what unit he was in! I don't really know! He never bothered to say in what we have, and one gets the impression He and his friend werner did not really belong to any one unit- they worked where they were needed under 2 or three different commanders.

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If your in range, so is the enemy.

 

[This message has been edited by Sorrow[S=A] (edited 05-24-2000).]