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[Vermillion]

The performance of the N1K1-J is very similar to the N1K2-J. In fact if you modeled the N1K1-J and placed it in a RPS or "midwar" arena, it would be even more dominate than the N1K2-J is in the current MA.

The Ki61-II, the airframe upon which the Ki100 is based, does indeed out perform the Ki100 in every category except for sustained turn rate. A characteristics that we know only gets you killed in both the MA and in real life.

And Widewing is correct in my opinon about the Ki100 and other late war Japanee aircraft in comparison to the Allied.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[SOB]

   

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Ive flown the Niki a lot, maybe too much,as some of you have pointed out. Basically it just doesnt feel like the other planes in here when it comes to E-retention, I dont know why,I dont know how to test E-retention, but it simply feels wrong. Actually I think it resembles the FM of a Jane's WW2 Fighters Spit9. Thats prolly why I like to fly the niki when things dont go well in the 109, its very simmilar to the planes in Janes WW2 Fighters. They can climb very long without stalling/spinning, they can hover on the top of a stall-climb - long enough for a controlled stall, they just dont need very much forward speed to pull wild vertical and turn manouvers, exacltly like the niki. I liked Janes for a long time, but its very crappy roadkill FM got tired and uninteresting so I left. You all pretty much know that I hate the chog and the niki in AH, thats why guys, they just remind me too damn much of the cheap
unchallenging, no skill, roadkill of Janes FM and weapons. Im sad to say but I dont think HTC gives a damn about niki or chog being changed, and why should they? These planes prolly draw in and retain more $$$ customers (QUAKERS), due to their incredible ease of use/killing, than they piss off and push away existing customers (HARD CORE DEDICATED FLIGHT SIMMERS), whom I soppose AH was originally targeted at with a high-end FM. Face it the new QUAKERS $10,$15,$20, or $30 a month is the same as DEDICATED SIMMERS $30 to HTC.

hehe...good lord Grunny, you are such a closet-Niki flying hypocrite it's just too damned amusing.  You fly the thing all the time, yet you continuously say it's grossly overmodelled and made for Quake Dweebs.  If you truely think the thing is F'ed up, then stick to your guns and don't fly it.  Otherwise quit posting this "it feels wrong" nonsense.

Tour 12 Stats:
grunherz has 229 kills and has been killed 151 times in the N1K2.
grunherz has 100 kills and has been killed 59 times in the Bf 109F-4.
grunherz has 60 kills and has been killed 19 times in the Bf 109G-10.

And to the rest of you experts out there, please once and for all tell us what is wrong with the Niki and WHY.  So the niki can do a bunch of loops and gain altitude?  Great.  You say that's wrong?  Great.  Why is it wrong?  I don't want to hear "no plane should be able to do that".  Why shouldn't the N1K2 Shiden-Kai be able to do that, and what data do you have to say that it shouldn't.  Plus a list of what else it does that it shouldn't do and WHY would also be helpful.  Until then, it's only as right or wrong as HTC says it is.  And if they do say there's something wrong with it, then they're obviously going to fix it, so there's no point in arguing about it.


SOB
...Lately becoming a Runstang dweeb, but never too far away from the Niki.

P.S. I hate all of you!      


[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 02-12-2001).]

[SOB]

 

Originally posted by Jigster:
I think the only big concern with the N1K2-J come from those flaps...it not only reshapes the chamber of the wing, the butterfly flaps make the N1K2, for the most part, a biplane, when extended. Two seperate flying surfaces are created once the flaps drop, and that seems like a reasonable amount of drag not being developed through manuvers.


There are a couple of things not accounted for, namely instant deployment...that didn't happen. The automatic flap system was based on AoA and speed, and took a few seconds to deploy according to speed and AoA. Second, there are some other form of flaps on N1K2 in addition to the accounted-for butterfly flaps, already worked into the flight model. It's and extra system that was not on the real one-- there were no other flap systems. I'm not sure what they are suppose to represent...as they add drag and no real lift benefits. The butterfly flaps deployed automatically for landing as well.

- Bess

BTW...Thanks Jigster for always adding useful information to these niki-bashing threads.  Whether it's pro or con it's always worth reading  


SOB

[GRUNHERZ]

Like I said SOB I speak from extensive niki flying experience.   Its just too damn easy to rack up 5,6,7,8 kill missions in that sucker and its blue cousin. And just look how often I flew the niki in tour 11, only once and even then it was only cuz I picked the wrong plane.I only take the dam thing when flying 109s becomes a pain in the bellybutton due to so many nikis and chogs in the MA. All those sobs have to do is turn like mad and even then they can climb with my zooms or at least hover long enough to get killing 600-900 yard sprayings.

FYI Tour 11:

GRUNHERZ has 123 kills and has been killed 24 times in the Bf109G-10

GRUNHERZ has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time in the N1K2

And frankly I dont see any hipocrisy in my stance on nikis. I make it quite clear that I fly the damn thing a lot every once in a while (pretty much tour 9 and 12 BTW )and thats why I hate them. Ive just been able to do too many wierd things in that piece of toejam, to trust its FM as being accurate. Other ppl have noticed this too its not like im the only one. Wasnt the niki poor at hi alt??? Not if you ask Animal in his P51 when I constantly outclimed him at 28K. Or this one day when Citabria jumped me from higher alt in a FW190A5, all I had to do was dodge one or two passes follow his dive a bit pull up and take a 600-700 yard shot just as he stalled out at the top of his zoom, while I continued climbing up, he was dead. Frankly sometimes it gets so bad I apolgize to ppl that I killed, while flying a niki- they did nothing wrong and flew clean tactics for their respective planes, but the BS niki I was in, can turn then climb then not stall, shoot then regain e, turn, climb again shoot not stall/spin. Frankly its pathetic. I cant shake the feeling that something is  its vertical performance and e retention. Heck even pyro said that he belives there might be problem with the way it climbs and how much power the engine model gives. So SOB I have a good reson to dislike the niki in AH, Ive flown its wierd FM too much. Actually I prolly dont fly the niki all that often in terms of #of sorties, its just that my strike rate in that 800rds of cannon turner is a lot higher than in the G10, which only has 60rds, but that I suppose is beyond the point.

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 02-12-2001).]

[SOB]

Congrats, you didn't fly it in Tour 11.    The fact still remains that you claim to be a "hard core dedicated flight simmer", claim the Niki is only for Quake dweebs who don't care about flight sims, yet you've flown the Niki just as much as any dedicated Niki driver.

If you can climb with 109s, then I'm pretty damned impressed, as every time I meet a good 109 pilot who's got alt I end up dead or dodging.  Guess I'm just one of those scores of quake dweebs  

Now, the only thing that I remember seeing from Pyro on this issue (and I could be remembering this wrong) is that it may perform better than it should at high alt.  Aside from that, just constant squeaking.  You give a lot of claims to what the plane can and can't do, and because you've flown it a lot, I actually give credence to what you say you've been able to do, but WHY is any of it inconsistant with how the real plane flew (ignoring any inaccuracies that can be found in the rest of the planeset here)?  You don't actually happen to have some conflicting data or some actual WWII fighter stick time to convince me with do you?  Because I truely WOULD appreciate it!


SOB

BTW...Salute for being the only plane whiner I've seen so far who also has a sense of humor about it...at least from what I've seen when I've given ya toejam in the MA  

[GRUNHERZ]

Im not exactly making a blanket statement that anyone who flies a niki is a quake dweeb. I know for example that you flew it at least from tour 7 (my first one), and u arent a dweeb. More precisly I meant that it and chog appeals to to the quake mentality in players rather than the serious hardcore sim idea that AH is supposed to be. It seems perfect for mindless type of flying, usually associated with low quality low realism FM - thus the JanesWW2 fighters reference-. Basically I feel it chepens the sim.

Now I dont know what a niki could or couldnt do in real life. However I have never read of any WW2 fighter doing 30 loops right from takeoff with minimal alt loss and even climbing. Apparently some other AH fighters can loop somewhat like this (but not quite as much), so this may be a general AH 1.04+ FM bug. However in reference to the other AH planes it seems niki benefited most from 104 FM change. Before that it was a capable and dangerous plane, that got limited use by a few more or less dedicated fliers. Then all of a sudden in 104 half the sky is full of them. Apparently the quake brigade moved from the previously overdone 190A5 to niki and chog.

This is what has me so mad bout the niki, what new perfomance figures did HTC suddenly discover to make niki so much more deadly and popular? In all likeliness there was no new stunning data. Thats why it really has me thinking that there is some subtle bug or error in its FM relating to vertical e-retention and power. That plus pyros concerns  over the niki, has me wondering if its all correct.

Sometimes it seems that im some amazinhunk whiner that just likes to squeak, but thats really not the case. Actually if u think about it if we all met each other somewhere we'd prolly get along fine. I mean really how many do ppl we all  know that like military history and aviation. So its ok to argue a bit as long we keep civil and not take it all too seriously.  

[rudedawg]

 

Originally posted by fscott:
Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

fscott

   ww2 version of ack dweebs?????????????


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[SOB]

Well, I don't know where in the heck you got the crazy idea that I'm not a dweeb, but thanks anyway  

Now who in their right mind would attempt a bunch off loops right after takeoff in real life?  I'd guess that's what you could attribute that loss of data to.

I guess I'm the 'take it as it is' kind of guy.  I flew WarBirds before this and have met Pyro on numerous occasions and just know that HTC knows what they're doing and if there's something wrong it'll be fixed eventually.  So, when the niki gets a seemingly better boost in performance with a new version, I assume that it's because the Niki suffered more from the inaccuracies in the previous flight model.  And if it did get screwed up, it won't be screwed up for long.  I'm not claiming I'm right, and actually I'm not claiming anything except that seeing the millionth post about how the Niki is screwed up because, ummm, well, just because get's annoying.  I picked on you directly for it because of your seeminly contradictary post, but you're definitely not at the top of the list when I think of whiney bastards...you are on there tho'  

Now I'll leave you because this is just getting tiresome.  I think I'll go try and get RAM riled up...you're not nearly irrational enough to be fun!  And you're right, I'm sure I'd get along fine with anyone on this board I met in real life...go to the CON and that'll probably happen.  Hell, I met Fatty at the con and was able to put up with him!


SOB

[F4UDOA]

 

. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kaneyoshi Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

Err, the story is a fake. It was released by the Japanese propaganda factory.

From "Imperial Japanese Naval Aces 1937 to 1945".

Quote

"Desperate to find heroes to help deflect the news of the seemingly endless series of military defeats , the Japanese press found WO Keneyoshi Muto's deeds during this sortie ideal for their propaganda purposes. An exaggerated version of the combat was duly spread that saw Muto single handedly take on 12 Hellcats, destroying 4-This myth survives to this day."

There were a total of 4 Hellcats downed but this was a Squad effort. Not the efforts of one man.

Better is the story of his death.

Muto and his flight of 6 NIK2 from the 343AG Jumped 2 lone F4U's downing one immediately. The other Pilot LT Robert Applegate was then joined by two F6F's one of which was also shot down. The remaining two (F4U&F6F) fought and destroyed all 6 of the attackers including Muto who was killed. The F4U pilot Robert Applegate was forced to ditch and F6F pilot Malcom Cagle was the only pilot from either side to land his A/C. Boths American pilots claimed three NME shot down.