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[fscott]

The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

fscott

[fscott]

I wonder how many of those Hellcat pilots wrote letters to Kawanishi designers and complained about the unrealistic uberness of the Niki.

fscott

[Voss]

Build it, and they (I) will shoot it down.  

[Jekyll]

Over Iwo Jima, Saburo Sakai returned to the cockpit of his Zero, minus an eye lost in combat months earlier.

He shot down 3 F6F's, and was then surrounded by a further 15 F6F's which he managed to evade until they returned to base.

He landed without a single bullet hole in his aircraft, even though he had been subjected to continual firing passes from the F6F's during their engagement.

So, fscott, can we infer from this that the Zero was a better aircraft than the F6F?

In fact, are you inferring anything at all?  If you're saying that the George was in experienced hands the equal of any Allied fighter, then of course I agree with you.

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-10-2001).]

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by fscott:
The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

fscott

Did muto claim to have shot down 4 F6Fs, or do Navy records indicate four were lost? The reason I ask should be obvious. Japanese Navy and Army pilots usually overclaimed by a factor of 4. I can present you with episode after episode where the Japanese claimed to have shot 4 or more American fighters, and NONE actually failed to return to their base or carrier. Even Sakai's total has be revised down to about 21 victories. On the other hand, post war investigation has revealed that U.S. pilots overclaimed by an average factor of 1.5 to 1. The Russians were almost as ambitious as the Japanese, having claimed three times more Luftwaffe aircraft than actually served on the eastern front.

One final point. The N1K2 was just about 100 mph slower than the P-47N, which was appearing in ever greater numbers over Japan in the last 5 months of the war. More importantly, the P-47N made its best speed at an altitude barely attainable by the George, much less being able to fight up there. The same goes for Ki-100, which is also highly over-rated by most Japanese fighter fans. This fighter was no faster than the Ki-61, nor was there any improvement in its overall flight envelope.

My regards,

Widewing

[SFRT - Frenchy]

 

Originally posted by fscott:
He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

fscott

In AH, he would had catch them when runing away and shot them down till they slpit into various heading to flee.

[Tac]

All that N1k would have to do is get those planes into a vertical fight frenchy. The N1k can do 2 or 3 consecutive immelmans and GAIN speed in the process. Gawd knows what mucked up antimatter drive that thing has.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

It gets better widewing-
This story came up quite awhile ago on the UBB and Pyro plugged it up quite well   It seems that several memoirs have noted that the story of that Nik were fabricated. In fact the nik was accompanied by other fighters and the TOTAL kill record of the engagement was attributed to the Nik to boost it's importance. Remember this was fair to the Japanese- all their kills were counted by squadron not by individual pilots.
If you do a search of the UBB for Vermillion and Pyro and the Nik2 one of the threads will have the quotes from the memoirs in question supplied by Pyro.

BTW about Soviet kill stats you are in error Widewing. Soviet stats are actually one of the closest to reality than any other service. The issue here was that most translations didn't account for "group kills" leading to more kill claims than german planes flown. In reality when more than one plane was engaged and no-one could claim or confirm who actually destroyed the enemy the pilots involved recieved a "group kill" that did not count towards their ace tally. This is actually quite fair as it is like the Probables in western counts, but when misunderstood would seem to make the VVS overclaiming horribly.

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If your in range, so is the enemy.

 

[This message has been edited by Sorrow[S=A] (edited 02-10-2001).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by fscott:
The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

fscott

So? Saburo Sakai fought, alone, 15 Hellcats over Okinawa, and he survived.

Sure, he did not claim 4 kills...but he was half blind.

And in a A6M5

We all know the A6M5 was the best fighter on the pacific theater, right?

<G>

[ra]

<<<The N1k can do 2 or 3 consecutive immelmans and GAIN speed in the process.>>>

Film, please!

ra

[Karnak]

I can do endless loops in the AH La5 and gain altitude while I do it.  It must be uber.  Lets have it nerfed.  No aircraft can do that until the F-15.  Everybody knows it.  These aircraft were all poswered by two-stroke lawn-mower engines.  Everybody knows it.  They could barely get off the ground.  Everybody knows that too.  When they did, they were almost certain to fall apart.

Jeez, don't you guys ever stop whining?

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Sisu
-Karnak

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by ra:
<<<The N1k can do 2 or 3 consecutive immelmans and GAIN speed in the process.>>>

Film, please!

ra

Go back in this same forum, Bloom25 filmed 27 consecutive loops starting at low speed and winning altitude in each one.

People in this forum said that it was normal. I dont believe it, but if so much people says that it is OK, it must be.

BTW a plane only a bit heavier than the Spit IX, with a 2000hp engine and doesnt make any noticeable effect at the top of the loop? at barely 100mph?

Curious. But people keep on sayint is OK, so it must be ok.

[Vermillion]

No RAM, if you go back and look at the film you will not see what you are claiming.

First off, the person who made the film, didn't start looping at normal minimum rotation speed like you think. They waited until around 250mph+ before they allowed the N1K2 to rotate off the runway. This is very important.

Plus they used an elevated runway (3k or 5k I can't remember), and once they were off the end of the runway, and did several loops their altitude actually dropped below that of the starting base altitude (ie if they would have started at sea level they would have crashed before completing that number of loops). Which is another point to consider.

Lets keep the facts straight and the propaganda to a minimum.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-10-2001).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
No RAM, if you go back and look at the film you will not see what you are claiming.

First off, the person who made the film, didn't start looping at normal minimum rotation speed like you think. They waited until around 250mph+ before they allowed the N1K2 to rotate off the runway. This is very important.

Lets keep the facts straight and the propaganda to a minimum.

Me? the things straight ME!?

he pulled off the runway at 150-175mph.
GET THE THINGS STRAIGHT; VERMILLION!

<G>

[AKDejaVu]

On the issue of consecutive looping and gaining alt... Would you expect a plane to be able to maintain a constant speed at the bottom of the loop?  Maybe even pick up a couple mph?  If this was the case, even if looping, it is gaining E.  Thus it should be able to climb while looping.

Now, the issue of 3 consecutive immelmans and still gaining  speed is completely different.  Like someone said above... lets see film.

AKDejaVu