Author Topic: -G lead shots ...  (Read 1939 times)

Offline froger

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 12:11:47 AM »
I think most of us have ripped the wing tips off a 262 at least once, when it's happened to me i was usually to busy to figure out how it happened also not running film either. as for the on the deck stick monkeys, what do you expect...
  most folks scream if you get the (rapid stick movement) message including me so i think you can't have it both ways.
sure it's a cartoon world and not real life so what makes ya happy?



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(edit)  personally i would like to see the flight model more realistic so the stick stir crowed would stay straight while i shoot  :D
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:17:40 AM by froger »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2010, 12:30:28 AM »
umm i guess nobody got what i was saying ...

picture a scissor where cross has been made and trail a/c is opposite aspect angle yet he pushes -G and gets enough lead to make a kill on plane going the other way ...

that kind of "WTF ??? NO EFFIN WAY!!!" kind of stuff just annoys me to no end ...

happened to me twice yesterday, is it just lag and his plane hasn't rolled on my FE yet or is it actually somebody pushing over into a shot ?

CUZ pushing over into getting a kill shot in a scissor is just soooo setting off the BS meter in my intuitive mind.

P.S. it was not me suggesting -2g was impossible in anything the other night(i thought that pretty unlikely myself)

and i am not sure where i have expressed an opinion on the MG 151 VS. Hispanos ...

+S+

t


« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 12:32:29 AM by thorsim »
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2010, 12:59:47 AM »
it seems to me that if the average man can handle 5 G's, they would make the planes to go to at least that limit....

To think the 262's wing's rip off at 2 g's is.... :rolleyes:

That little thing.... (-)

It means "negative".  Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.

At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life.  Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.

Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe.  After that, it can come unglued.  The pilot, meanwhile will likely be blinded at least semi-permanently, with any sustained push to -3.0 G.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 01:23:26 AM by MORAY37 »
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Offline grizz441

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2010, 01:02:04 AM »
umm i guess nobody got what i was saying ...

That's because you didn't explain anything in your original post.

Offline thorsim

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2010, 01:10:53 AM »
That's because you didn't explain anything in your original post.

could be, but ...

" -G lead shots "

seemed pretty clear to me ...

any thoughts on them btw?

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Offline thorsim

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 01:13:50 AM »
That little thing.... (-)

It means "negative".  Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.

At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life.  Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.

Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe.  After that, it can come unglued.



ummm ...

http://www.extraaircraft.com/ea300.asp

FAA Certified Load Factor       +/- 10 Gs

as far as the going blind stuff, we've all heard that before  :lol
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Offline grizz441

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 01:21:21 AM »
That little thing.... (-)

It means "negative".  Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.

At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life.  Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.

Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe.  After that, it can come unglued.


As far as the human limits to negative G's:
From wiki G-force page:

Resistance to "negative" or "downward" g, which drives blood to the head, is much lower. This limit is typically in the −2 to −3 g (−20 m/sē to −30 m/sē) range. The subject's vision turns red, referred to as a red out. This is probably because capillaries in the eyes swell or burst under the increased blood pressure.

It would probably be difficult to get back to base with burst capillaries in the eyes, but this seems like over modeling to me.  You can get pilot wounded, have your own blood splattered across the cockpit but as long as you get back to base and end flight before you die, you are magically healed and ready to fly again.  It's a game.

As far as WW2 aircraft limits to negative G's:

I have no idea.  If the limits are not posted in manuals, you would have to look at cross sections of the wing design, materials used, and reinforcement in place to figure out what kind of bending moments it could take in the opposite direction.

As for the negative G limits in the game:

Not sure, I'd have to test.  When I initiate neg G maneuvers in the Me262, I usually pull enough neg G just upon the cusp of red out which IIRC, onset occurs at less than negative 3 Gs which coincides with the max human allowable.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 01:23:42 AM by grizz441 »

Offline MORAY37

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2010, 01:29:56 AM »
ummm ...

http://www.extraaircraft.com/ea300.asp

FAA Certified Load Factor       +/- 10 Gs

as far as the going blind stuff, we've all heard that before  :lol

That's unreal.  Look into the medical tests on -G's.  There are quite a few that predict severe hemorrhaging in the brain at -4.5 and well...... a lot worse any more than that.  Nobody's volunteered for the tests I guess.  

Here's the NASA table for flight safety maximums (human): And these are absolutes, no safety net built in.

Time (min)   +Gx   -Gx   +Gz   -Gz
.01 (<1 sec)   35   28   18   8
.03 (2 sec)   28   22   14   7
.1      20   17   11   5
.3      15   12   9   4.5
1      11   9   7   3.3
3      9   8   6   2.5
10      6   5   4.5   2
30      4.5   4   3.5   1.8




So unless the body is sideways (X) you're screwed totally at -4.5 G's and .3 minutes.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 01:33:07 AM by MORAY37 »
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Offline Bronk

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2010, 05:04:54 AM »
I was in a D11 chasing a A8, at D400 he started the electric fish dance..   I took me well over 1000 rounds to kill him, it seemed like many of them just.. passed through him  :headscratch:  no hit sprites nothing..  It was absurd how LONG it took me to kill the guy, he would nose down hard then up then flip left and right.  I totally gave up on trying to "lead" him, because his plane pointed 3 different directions every second,  so I just aimed at the general path he was taking.. I.E. the heart of the spasm and just fired when he crossed it..

he (pilot) would have been unconscious or completely disoriented a few seconds into this crap.

Ahh yes the famous -G pushover into the land trout.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2010, 06:58:40 AM »
Wait so your saying the German Iron have an easier time shooting doing neg Gs? I cant make any shot doing neg Gs in a 109 or 152.



As far as the "Neg G pushover" it does cause a warp for me on my end, which I think Im not the only one :salute
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Offline rvflyer

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2010, 07:25:06 AM »
I agree, it seems all German iron is highly over modeled in this fashion.  I've read many reports where they said no more than -1G would surely damage the aircraft beyond repair or recovery.

What? you are 1G siting still on the ground. :headscratch:
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Offline rvflyer

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2010, 07:32:57 AM »
That little thing.... (-)

It means "negative".  Stow the 'tude, open the eyes.

At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life.  Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.

Just for a benchmark.... the F-22 is rated at +9.0 /-3.0 Gs for the airframe.  After that, it can come unglued.  The pilot, meanwhile will likely be blinded at least semi-permanently, with any sustained push to -3.0 G.



absolute nonsense I do -2 all the time in my RV-6 it is rated for +6 -6Gs
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Offline dedalos

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2010, 08:18:07 AM »
umm i guess nobody got what i was saying ...

picture a scissor where cross has been made and trail a/c is opposite aspect angle yet he pushes -G and gets enough lead to make a kill on plane going the other way ...

that kind of "WTF ??? NO EFFIN WAY!!!" kind of stuff just annoys me to no end ...

happened to me twice yesterday, is it just lag and his plane hasn't rolled on my FE yet or is it actually somebody pushing over into a shot ?

CUZ pushing over into getting a kill shot in a scissor is just soooo setting off the BS meter in my intuitive mind.

P.S. it was not me suggesting -2g was impossible in anything the other night(i thought that pretty unlikely myself)

and i am not sure where i have expressed an opinion on the MG 151 VS. Hispanos ...

+S+

t




Yep, keep in mind that he is not really where you see him.  Some times close, some times way off.  I see people firing at me after a head on pass and then the pings start coming in.  It depends on the day and the map (maybe map a coincidence).  Some days are just bad for me.

On another note, I dont mind the negative G, stick twisting etc in order to avoid getting killed. It is annoying and makes me waste a lot of ammo but I guess that is all they know.  What gets to me is that they can pull away from an LA7 while they are doing that.
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Offline Impakt

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2010, 08:18:49 AM »
I was aware that Thor was discussing something different from my brief "arghh, stick stirring, neg G C-2" on 200. I just chimed in because someone mentioned it, ie, to clarify what I said on 200.

  It is a game and i don't expect people to just volunteer to be an easy kill. It would be nice if they did actual defensive maneuvers (like the ones I mentioned). Instead,  they do the mini moves that I think effects gunnery calcs---I emptied an entire ammo load from my FM-2 converged SHORT (I was VERY close) and did not even get a ping. I'm NOT crying 'foul'---the game has so many elements that are unrealistic---its a sim and a great one. I was just expressing frustration. I actually read a real life account of a P-40 pilot who was rtb and ammoless on the deck. He said he just jiggled and and rocked the stick around like hell until his pursuer ran out of ammo. My problem with the sim is I wish the con would slow down because of all the moves, but P-47s with one wing continue at full speed---so why not.

I'm having fun so no problems here.


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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: -G lead shots ...
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2010, 08:29:07 AM »
Here's the NASA table for flight safety maximums (human): And these are absolutes, no safety net built in.

Time (min)   +Gx   -Gx   +Gz   -Gz
.01 (<1 sec)   35   28   18   8
.03 (2 sec)   28   22   14   7
.1      20   17   11   5
.3      15   12   9   4.5
1      11   9   7   3.3
3      9   8   6   2.5
10      6   5   4.5   2
30      4.5   4   3.5   1.8

... shows that people can withstand -7G for up to 2s. each neg G evasive movement will be in in the 0.1s range at most so the pilot isnt a limiting factor for this kind of evasion.

is the aircraft a limiting factor? not sure, but its easy to test - the film viewer shows the accelerometer readings, pushover real quick and see if the wings fall off, and at what G. I suspect this isnt an issue either - it doesnt take much -G to displace an aircraft 20yds off its heading, which if you're saddled up at d200 is enough to defeat the shot.

no E cost for this kind of maneuvering? rubbish. get to max level speed, note speed, do evasives, note speed again. 1000 perks says your speed has dropped.

unrealistic?

from the defender:
Quote from: John Godfrey, Jug pilot
It would only be a matter of seconds now. I had lost airspeed, and even if I turned left or right, or dived, I would still, probably, not be able to escape him [saddled up 109]. But then I remembered sitting back in Eshott, listening to two RAF Battle of Britain pilots talking. Their words stuck in my memory: "The important thing is to do something. Make no movement gently, but be as violent as possible..."

from the attacker:
Quote from: Maj Robert Johnson
When he saw me behind he began to whip back and forth, left and right, as violently as he could. I followed, but it was hard to line him up for a shot. Finally, as we kept whipping back and forth, left and right, I began to shoot before he whipped and he had to fly through my fire.

Shaw spends several pages describing a "jinking" defense against saddled up opponents.

as for (relatively) sustained neg G evasion, its a standard ACM - the Hartmann Escape.


I see alot of comments about "neg G BS!", essentially they're just whines about not getting an easy kill.
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