-G lead shots ...

[JunkyII]

I was aware that Thor was discussing something different from my brief "arghh, stick stirring, neg G C-2" on 200. I just chimed in because someone mentioned it, ie, to clarify what I said on 200.

  It is a game and i don't expect people to just volunteer to be an easy kill. It would be nice if they did actual defensive maneuvers (like the ones I mentioned). Instead,  they do the mini moves that I think effects gunnery calcs---I emptied an entire ammo load from my FM-2 converged SHORT (I was VERY close) and did not even get a ping. I'm NOT crying 'foul'---the game has so many elements that are unrealistic---its a sim and a great one. I was just expressing frustration. I actually read a real life account of a P-40 pilot who was rtb and ammoless on the deck. He said he just jiggled and and rocked the stick around like hell until his pursuer ran out of ammo. My problem with the sim is I wish the con would slow down because of all the moves, but P-47s with one wing continue at full speed---so why not.

I'm having fun so no problems here.

I said the thing about someone on 200.....it wasnt about you just bad luck I guess. I was talking about DadsGuns


 

[rvflyer]

I agree, it seems all German iron is highly over modeled in this fashion.  I've read many reports where they said no more than -1G would surely damage the aircraft beyond repair or recovery.

nvm missed the -

[RTHolmes]

as for sustained -G lead shots, some time back my D25 got bounced by (I think) SirVlad. I started a scissors which looked ok, he was slightly out of phase, then after one direction change he didnt roll to follow me but instead pulled -G and a sustained burst ripped my wing off. gamey? no. impressive? definitely.

[Yeager]

Let me hold still while I let you kill me.......

[RTHolmes]

quite

[colmbo]

At -2 G, the pilot loses his eyes in real life.  Capillaries burst. I doubt there was an airframe in WW2 that even got close to handling -2 G's, and staying intact.

I've been to over -2G R/L...eyes are fine.  The guys flying acro go well over -2G, they land okay so have to assume the eyes are okay.

[thorsim]

as for sustained -G lead shots, some time back my D25 got bounced by (I think) SirVlad. I started a scissors which looked ok, he was slightly out of phase, then after one direction change he didnt roll to follow me but instead pulled -G and a sustained burst ripped my wing off. gamey? no. impressive? definitely.

ya think ...

man when i saw that it just bugged me, maybe because my turn/controllability is so poor in the a8 that another plane can not only follow my +G pull in a scissor but pull lead and do it pushing over -G ...

mind you we may have not been so fast that we were pulling a ton of Gs but it still left me scratching my head and grumbling quite a bit, i fly out my rear view quite a bit and rely on aspect angles to determine my safety, after 13 or so years of this i have never had to worry about -Gs under nose tracking (except for a brief period in WB when the KRAUTS were up to some shenanigans) because getting killed by a plane 180 degrees out of phase is a bit much imo ...

i guess i will call it lag, and keep an eye out for it

good discussion though

+S+

[Sol75]

I've been to over -2G R/L...eyes are fine.  The guys flying acro go well over -2G, they land okay so have to assume the eyes are okay.

Yep... I can vouch for this, done outside loops that have peaked @ -3.9g... my eyes are still here.  I will however say, for some reason, -G's are much more disorienting than positive.  Much more "uncomfortable".  As much as the "floppy fish" maneuver annoys me, there is no physiological reason a pilot could not do so, aside from disorientation factor, which can be trained out.  (which cannot be a factor in this game unless we had RPG style pilot stats).  As for airframe withstanding such, don't know the G load limits for the WW2 airframes, but a limit of less than -2G seems awfully low to me.... I could be wrong on that though.  Plus, if we are talking real life, if someone is shooting at me, I will do anything I can to get away.  If I bend the airframe? OH freakin well, I'm still alive, and even if the airframe is broken to a point of uncontrollability, or inability to sustain flight, i've provided myself with an opportunity to at least bail out, which I may not have had with a MG or cannon round ripping through my aircraft and body...


Sol

[Sol75]

oops

[Sol75]

ya think ...

man when i saw that it just bugged me, maybe because my turn/controllability is so poor in the a8 that another plane can not only follow my +G pull in a scissor but pull lead and do it pushing over -G ...

mind you we may have not been so fast that we were pulling a ton of Gs but it still left me scratching my head and grumbling quite a bit, i fly out my rear view quite a bit and rely on aspect angles to determine my safety, after 13 or so years of this i have never had to worry about -Gs under nose tracking (except for a brief period in WB when the KRAUTS were up to some shenanigans) because getting killed by a plane 180 degrees out of phase is a bit much imo ...

i guess i will call it lag, and keep an eye out for it

good discussion though

+S+

Keep in mind also, that what you percieve as a -G push, could be simply an unloading of G's.  We don't see -g's as often, thus they can be harder to judge on an enemy airframe.  I have made many killshots in my 38 by unloading to 0, or a SLIGHT negative (-.5 to -1) G push. 

[grizz441]

Neg G maneuvers definitely have their use in the game.  While you don't gain any position on your enemies by Neg G'ing, it can buy you extra time to allow a friend to attempt to clear your six or to allow you to regain enough air speed to outrun your opponent in certain planes.  If you are saddled by one with 2 others behind him and friends near, why engage a scissor?  If you are lucky enough for the first guy to miss, you will get picked by the 2nd or 3rd behind him, <golf clap>.  I'd rather just evade and try to buy myself an extra 10-15 seconds for an ally to clear my six.  If no allies are present, the only option is to engage the enemy and try to pull a rabbit out of your hat.

[RTHolmes]

thinking about it I used to take loads of -G shots when I flew the typhy alot. the dreadful rollrate means that people tend to split-S when you bounce them, which is hard to follow, but you do have time to push the nose down and grab a quick burst of 20mm. I have a bunch of films of the typhy removing various aircrafts tails doing just this, if the film viewer ever gets fixed I can post. usually just on the edge of redout, so <3G?

[thorsim]

thinking about it I used to take loads of -G shots when I flew the typhy alot. the dreadful rollrate means that people tend to split-S when you bounce them, which is hard to follow, but you do have time to push the nose down and grab a quick burst of 20mm. I have a bunch of films of the typhy removing various aircrafts tails doing just this, if the film viewer ever gets fixed I can post. usually just on the edge of redout, so <3G?

i wonder how many round casings "falling" up back into the chamber it would take to prove the folly of a negative G gun solution ...

Neg G maneuvers definitely have their use in the game.  While you don't gain any position on your enemies by Neg G'ing, it can buy you extra time to allow a friend to attempt to clear your six or to allow you to regain enough air speed to outrun your opponent in certain planes.  If you are saddled by one with 2 others behind him and friends near, why engage a scissor?  If you are lucky enough for the first guy to miss, you will get picked by the 2nd or 3rd behind him, <golf clap>.  I'd rather just evade and try to buy myself an extra 10-15 seconds for an ally to clear my six.  If no allies are present, the only option is to engage the enemy and try to pull a rabbit out of your hat.

i use the scissor a lot, and well.  i can draw people in and force overshoots pretty regularly, i hope this negative g shooting thing does not ruin the one really good evasive left to the 190s ...

that would be pretty hard to take ...

[RTHolmes]

i wonder how many round casings "falling" up back into the chamber it would take to prove the folly of a negative G gun solution ...

seems unlikely, they were gas ejected iirc

[Ghastly]

I see alot of comments about "neg G BS!", essentially they're just whines about not getting an easy kill.

Sometimes, but not EVERY time.  Some of the pilots I've engaged lately are using a sustained, severe negative G maneuver as their first line of defense, which most definitely lends an air of the surreal to the engagement.  While there were a lot of things I didn't like about WWIIOL - or the pilot fatigue model they used - I'm beginning to believe that I might welcome something similar here to keep some pilots a bit more "honest" when it comes to negative G maneuvers.  A 2 second 450 mph transition (it's of much too long of a duration to call it a "bunt") from horizontal to near vertical followed by a half roll and a near max G turn out is not something you'd ever want to do for real.   But here...

<S>