190D from Co-E state

[PJ_Godzilla]

Here's a question for the Trainers...

How many of you trainers could, from a Co-E state no-guns HO merge, defeat, for example, a Spit XIV or Spit XVI if you're flying a 190d?

I'd like to meet up with one of you in the TA if you think you've got that solution. My experience says, hay que problema...

OTOH, I would feel like King Sh*t if I could pull off such a thing.

[trotter]

Who is flying the spit?

[PJ_Godzilla]

Who is flying the spit?

I'd like to say, a pilot of equivalent talent and experience to the 190d pilot.

[trotter]

I'd like to say, a pilot of equivalent talent and experience to the 190d pilot.

I'm no trainer, but I think the result then should be about 50/50. This may seem outrageous at first -- after all, the spit has such a huge advantage in mid to low speed instanteous and sustained turn -- but with a highly skilled 190 pilot, the fight won't be about horizontal manueverability, it will be in the vertical. Since the planes in question have comparable climb rates, and given the 190's zoom capability, the fight will be closer than you think, and will be won or lost by who maintains their E the best during the first and second immel.

Just my non-trainer opinion, take for what it's worth.

[grizz441]

I'm no trainer, but I think the result then should be about 50/50. This may seem outrageous at first -- after all, the spit has such a huge advantage in mid to low speed instanteous and sustained turn -- but with a highly skilled 190 pilot, the fight won't be about horizontal manueverability, it will be in the vertical. Since the planes in question have comparable climb rates, and given the 190's zoom capability, the fight will be closer than you think, and will be won or lost by who maintains their E the best during the first and second immel.

Just my non-trainer opinion, take for what it's worth.

50/50?  No way.

Co-E isn't enough info IMO.  If they have some alt underneath them the D9 will win a few more fights.  Equal pilots, the 190D9 shouldn't win more than 20%.

[PJ_Godzilla]

I'm no trainer, but I think the result then should be about 50/50. This may seem outrageous at first -- after all, the spit has such a huge advantage in mid to low speed instanteous and sustained turn -- but with a highly skilled 190 pilot, the fight won't be about horizontal manueverability, it will be in the vertical. Since the planes in question have comparable climb rates, and given the 190's zoom capability, the fight will be closer than you think, and will be won or lost by who maintains their E the best during the first and second immel.

Just my non-trainer opinion, take for what it's worth.

You've nailed my frustration with fighting the Spit from Co-E in the 190D - you're not competitive in the flat and the Spit is comparable in the vertical. So, you take the 190d vertical and try to work the battle. But, while you're pulling your turn via vertical+roll (the Immie), the Spit can climb/descend spiral or flat turn.

I ran into this situation once where the Spit kept turning. I was rolling nose down. See where this one ends...Nose up, you've got a stall at the end of the road.

Give the 190d some alt or some better speed than the Spit (usually the prereq to me engaging one), and the story's obviously easier for the Dora pilot.

I'd still like to get the trainer's take - and that's not to doubt your competence.

Collateral question - how do I best maintain my E in the Immie without getting killed? My take always: g bleeds E. However, g (load) also changes direction...

[Tordon22]

 Equal pilots, the 190D9 shouldn't win more than 20%.

20% even? If you were say the 190 what approach would you be taking to the merge? Vertical overshoot of some sort?

[grizz441]

20% even? If you were say the 190 what approach would you be taking to the merge? Vertical overshoot of some sort?

Like I said, it depends on how much alt they have underneath them, and that will give the 190D9 more wiggle room to amplify an E edge or exploit a shot on the spit16.  If it's Co-E on the deck, the 190D9 shouldn't win more than 10%.

As for tactic?  I guess it depends how your opponent is flying but generally speaking, some sort of spiral climb and then getting inside the spit16 for a shot or going for the rope depending on how it plays out.

It's all going to come down to the D9 working for *one shot* (maybe 2 but I find this unlikely against an equal skill pilot in a spit16) and nailing it.  Or working for a rope, and then not giving the advantage back to the Spit while making continuous attacks on him until he is killed.  The latter makes for a very boring duel.

[Tordon22]

I see and understand about the alt thing. There's a million ways to do it I suppose . Thanks for the quick response.

[Sonicblu]

I would think if depends on how far out you extended in the 190 and kept your e- in the turns back.

Bottom line you would have to get to a higher e state and go for some sort of vert rope. Other wise i would guess get and overshoot.

Im not sure you can seperate the plane from the pilot and you will never get two identical pilots no matter what you do. I would think if would be more about getting the other pilot to make a mistake that you could capitalize on.

That being said I rather be in one of the spits if it was life and death.

[grizz441]

I would think if depends on how far out you extended in the 190 and kept your e- in the turns back.

Bottom line you would have to get to a higher e state and go for some sort of vert rope. Other wise i would guess get and overshoot.

Im not sure you can seperate the plane from the pilot and you will never get two identical pilots no matter what you do. I would think if would be more about getting the other pilot to make a mistake that you could capitalize on.

That being said I rather be in one of the spits if it was life and death.

I can fly the D9, and if I dueled Bruv in a Spit16, I laugh at the notion that I would be able to win more than a couple lucky fights within a set.  For all intensive purposes, the equal skill assumption would be accurate enough to compare the plane matchup.  I will never do this matchup against an equal skill pilot however, as I have no desire to get waxed 90% of the time just to prove I can hit a lucky shot or hang on my prop to initiate a boring B&Z 'fight'.

[PJ_Godzilla]

I can fly the D9, and if I dueled Bruv in a Spit16, I laugh at the notion that I would be able to win more than a couple lucky fights within a set.  For all intensive purposes, the equal skill assumption would be accurate enough to compare the plane matchup.  I will never do this matchup against an equal skill pilot however, as I have no desire to get waxed 90% of the time just to prove I can hit a lucky shot or hang on my prop to initiate a boring B&Z 'fight'.

Thanks, gents, for letting me know that I'm not in dire need of institutionalization or a thorazine injection... or, at least not for this reason.

[grizz441]

Thanks, gents, for letting me know that I'm not in dire need of institutionalization or a thorazine injection... or, at least not for this reason.

Don't use it as an excuse not to get really good with a plane like the D9.  Being in the top 95% percentile, you should be able to hand at least half of the spit16s pilots their tulips in the main arena.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Don't use it as an excuse not to get really good with a plane like the D9.  Being in the top 95% percentile, you should be able to hand at least half of the spit16s pilots their tulips in the main arena.

I agree. The prize is still enticing - and who enters a fight without an advantage (well, me, often, actually)? It's like  I say, the usual scenario of me in the D9 is:

1. exhausting all my E on the first enemy con, usually because of ineffective initial gunnery, that godawful long nose, and a dogged unwillingness to pull off
2. falling victim to the second enemy con.

At the same time, having spent a lot of stick time in the Spit lately, I'm starting to appreciate how untouchable those d9s can feel when they come in fast. It's also interesting to watch a good D-9 stick use his roll as an evasive. I tend to overdo it, half-piping with higher-amplitude roll excursions and burning too much speed. A really good d-9 stick will extend on you even as he frustrates your aim via smaller, quicker roll excursions.

[boomerlu]

Dueling... not close...

But if you can rope the Spit (and you CAN... your top speed gives you the zoom to do it)... easy kill.

Edit: also remember the D9 is a team plane. Flying loose deuce with another D9 covering each others backs... that is when the Dora is in its real element.