Countering the Rolling Scissors

[uptown]

I can't get past #2...the buffett part. Dang i'm hungry  

[JunkyII]

You're the attacker and the opponent tries to force a rolling scissor as a defensive maneuver.  No scanner so no image.


ack-ack

What do you do if your already in the rolling scissors?

[FLS]

What do you do if your already in the rolling scissors?

If you're losing and you have alt you dive out while your opponent is going up.

[mtnman]

If you lag roll in a rolling scissors aren't you giving the defensive fighter turning room?

In a rolling scissor, you're in a race to "fall behind".  So, lag pursuit is your friend.  Giving him "room" is giving him room to hang himself.  If you don't give him room, but pressure him instead, you'll find yourself out front and getting shot at.  Patience...

If you're the attacker, the defender is counting on your greater speed, desire to pressure him, and willingness to join a rolling scissors him to make his rolling scissors work. The rolling scissors isn't an offensive move. 

If you're attacking, and are in a rolling scissors, you've already made a mistake.  As an attacker, you shouldn't be thinking "I'm gonna rolling scissors him to death".  Or, "when we get into a rolling scissors, I need/want to..."  You should be thinking "If he tries to draw me into a rolling scissors, I need to be careful, stay out of it, and counter it by..."

The defender is trying to draw you into a rolling scissors, or at least a situation where one can develop.  If you allow that (as the attacker), you're allowing him to dictate the terms of the fight.  That's poor form...  It'll get you kilt!

Countering the rolling scissors is easy- just don't get sucked into it...  It's a defensive move (even though it's intended to turn the tables on you).  If the defender can "make" you, or "trick" you into joining his scissors, well, I guess you deserve it then...

Personally, I like to (as the attacker), just blow through (staying away from his guns), and go up for a yo-yo and another pass.  Avoid allowing the defender any/much horizontal separation.  Allowing that will allow the defender to equalize your E-states.  You'll lose your advantage...

To "win" the rolling scissors, all you need to do is stay behind your opponent.  You do that by adjusting the angle and radius of your rolls, and flying lag pursuit.  Viewed from the side, it's just spiral (er, two spirals, inter-meshed).  It's not about flying slower than your opponent.  It's about flying a longer path, while at the same time making less forward progress than your opponent.  Given the option, I'm always trying to start the rolling scissors (as a defender, remember...) as close to equal in speed as possible, and I actually try to exit it (for my shot) faster than my attacker.  Once I've forced him out front, I don't want him to get away...  In terms of pursuit, I'm initially in lead pursuit (he's behind or beside me), transitioning into lag, and then using lag and lead as needed to get behind, stay behind, finally get my shot...

[Saxman]

That being said, from a defensive standpoint there's still some aircraft you're treading on thin ice if you try to use a rolling scissors against them. I love it when P-51s, Ki-84s, 109s, etc. try to do it against my F4U. 

[mtnman]

That being said, from a defensive standpoint there's still some aircraft you're treading on thin ice if you try to use a rolling scissors against them. I love it when P-51s, Ki-84s, 109s, etc. try to do it against my F4U. 

I love it as a defensive maneuver, I get gobs of kills by using it.  I'm just saying that if you need to counter it, you shouldn't be in it...

[FLS]

Mtnman I agree about lag pursuit but Ack-Ack was quoting Boyd's lag displacement roll to the outside of a turn against a flat scissors and Ack-Ack stated that it could be used against a rolling scissors. I believe you're talking about something else.

[mtnman]

Mtnman I agree about lag pursuit but Ack-Ack was quoting Boyd's lag displacement roll to the outside of a turn against a flat scissors and stated that it could be used against a rolling scissors. I believe you're talking about something else.

It really can't be used against a rolling scissors, because if he's doing the lag displacement roll, he's not doing the rolling scissors.  If he's not doing the rolling scissors, the rolling scissors doesn't exist (so there's no need to counter it)...  Like I said earlier, countering the rolling scissors is easy- just don't do it, and it's countered.  Done.  It's hard (and pointless) to counter something that isn't there.

So, he's using the lag displacement roll instead of entering a rolling scissors, not against a rolling scissors.  And that's a good option.  But again, it isn't being used against a scissors, it's not even going to allow a scissors to occur.

The scissors requires two willing participants; without that, all you have is a guy doing barrel rolls (or horizontal break turns) while being attacked.  And if you run into that, it shouldn't take too much fancy flying to come out ahead.

The lag displacement roll is generally used when an opponent does a break turn.  He breaks right, you roll left...  But, that means no scissors has occurred...  You can also use it if you're the attacker, and are drawn into a scissors that you find yourself losing.  In that case, you break out of the scissors by doing a lag displacement roll (hence, you're no longer in the scissors). 

It's just terminology I guess, but that's where confusion sets in.  Are we talking about winning the rolling scissors, or using options other than a rolling scissors?  To use an option other than a rolling scissors, and say that allows you to beat or win the rolling scissors is inaccurate, IMO.

[FLS]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. In the Aerial Attack study Boyd describes a lag displacement roll as a counter to a scissors. Ack-Ack quoted this in the OP and stated it was a counter to a rolling scissors, hence the title to this thread. I pointed out that Boyd specified a scissors not a rolling scissors and Ack-Ack stated that "You can use the counter for both flat and rolling scissors". I agree with you and disagree with Ack-Ack. I hope this clears it up. I wasn't saying that Boyd stated it could be used against a rollling scissors but I see how what I wrote could be read that way. At any rate there's lot of helpful information in this thread now.   

[Saxman]

Rather than saying it's a tactic of countering a rolling scissors, let's just say it's a tactic to AVOID a rolling scissors.

[boomerlu]

In a rolling scissor, you're in a race to "fall behind".  So, lag pursuit is your friend.  Giving him "room" is giving him room to hang himself.  If you don't give him room, but pressure him instead, you'll find yourself out front and getting shot at.  Patience...

Exactly, and I feel this is something a lot of people don't realize. In a dueling situation, if I'm on somebody's 6 (or nearly so) and they try to start a rolling scissors on me, I know it's a trivial matter for me to just stay in lag until I gain enough turning room to pull lead for the shot and kill.

One thing I've always been bad at is trying to force a rolling scissors as a defender. I don't know the visual cues for it.

[Ruah]

I usually just pull up and flip the plane so I am looking down and look for the deflection from above - if the opponent is rolling, then I will time the dive on the top of his roll, if its a flat, I look for the zoom, the dive, or the turn - either way, having an e- advantage gives me all the options while he is killing all his e avoiding me. 

The best rolling scissors is when I am so close and so underpowered that a climb is not possible - in that case I am not afraid of the overshoot and its roll roll fun time (which in Russian planes is a challange since the Yak tends to rock a lot). 

maby I missed the point of the post here - but countering a rolling scissors is to avoid the scissor entierly imo.

[thorsim]

boyd knew when position mattered more than energy and would often get position and just sit there in the rear quarter while his prey squirmed and thrashed all his energy away out in front trying to break free or force a reversal ...

then he would pounce ...

in less then 40 seconds ...

usually fights are struggles over either position or energy but great fighter pilots know that they are the two edges of the same sword, that both are lethal and that you can't really exploit one fully without giving up the other a bit.  the pilot who can exert his will, change his goals, and then reassert his dominance where his best advantage lies at that moment, will be difficult to defeat in ACM.

this is where the games fail, as advantages and disadvantages tend to be too great, and limitations to broad to fully explore ACM as they do in the real world ...

imo.    

[FLS]

The nickname "40 second Boyd" doesn't refer to pouncing after sitting on somebody's 6 for a while. It was one trick he worked on new guys. They'd start on his 6, he'd pull the nose up so fast on his F-100 that the drag from his planeform would slow him up and cause an overshoot. It's not something he could do twice to the same pilot.

[thorsim]

yea should have added a wink there after the 40 second part ...

The nickname "40 second Boyd" doesn't refer to pouncing after sitting on somebody's 6 for a while. It was one trick he worked on new guys. They'd start on his 6, he'd pull the nose up so fast on his F-100 that the drag from his planeform would slow him up and cause an overshoot. It's not something he could do twice to the same pilot.