Countering the Rolling Scissors

[Saxman]

the ability to maneuver while flying slowly ...

which the hog was not noted for either in TRW ...

Let's not start this again....

[boomerlu]

If you're flying that slowly at any part except the top of the rolling scissors, you're doing it wrong and in fact you're probably screwed. The other plane could then keep its E and outpace the Hog in the vertical while it wallows trying to recover lost E.

So regardless of thor's whole "porked Hog FM argument", the reason given can't be the right one.

[Ardy123]

If you're flying that slowly at any part except the top of the rolling scissors, you're doing it wrong and in fact you're probably screwed. The other plane could then keep its E and outpace the Hog in the vertical while it wallows trying to recover lost E.

So regardless of thor's whole "porked Hog FM argument", the reason given can't be the right one.

Often when I try to keep my speed up, it greatly increases the distance needed to pull my nose up at the bottom, causing me to overshoot. How are you overcoming this problem?

[boomerlu]

Typically when somebody goes through the "bottom" part of the rolling scissors, I might go "less through the bottom". In other words, I follow a flight path that's slightly higher (closer to a flat turn rather than a split-S). This will favor the plane with higher acceleration/climb rate as it keeps the fight at a higher altitude. This makes sense given that I fly 109s a lot.

Also, the two situations we're talking about aren't exactly the same. I'm referring to really really low speeds (100 ish), you're probably referring to something like (150-180). If your E-states are relatively close and speeds are in the mid-range, chopping throttle briefly may be advisable to lose something like 10 mph and get the inside track. This way, your opponent can't outpace you in the vertical.

If you dump too much E, then he can go far more vertical than you and force an overshoot that way (again in the 150+ range). If it's too slow (100 ish), then that extra 10 mph can make the difference as it becomes difficult for your opponent to point the nose up even for a relatively small alt difference.

Regardless, if you're on the offense, you shouldn't be allowing your speed down that low, and that was my point. If your opponent chops throttle, goes flat (or rolling scissors) to try to force an overshoot, the solution is to maintain your speed and go vertical.

And as you can see, if you're on defense and you've done a throttle chopped (or otherwise low speed, 100 mph ish) rolling scissors, your opponent can simply respond by going vertical assuming he was smart enough to recognize it (hence why I say "and you're probably screwed").

The Hog's low speed handling can definitely help in something like a flat scissors... but rolling... I don't see it.

[RTHolmes]

If you're flying that slowly at any part except the top of the rolling scissors, you're doing it wrong and in fact you're probably screwed. The other plane could then keep its E and outpace the Hog in the vertical while it wallows trying to recover lost E.

yup its all about throttle control - simply put you should be wepping on the way up and chopped as you go over the top and down, ideally you want the same speed all the way round the barrel roll although thats almost impossible. a proper barrel roll is very hard to do right, requires really good throttle control and precise rudder.

the rolling scissors isnt about dumping your speed and E to achieve superior turn radius like the flar scissors, check out badboys explanation:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm

[mtnman]

the ability to maneuver while flying slowly ...

which the hog was not noted for either in TRW ...

The rolling scissors isn't about flying slowly.  

The rolling scissors is about creating an overshoot.  Getting slow, believe it or not, is a poor way to accomplish that.  As a matter of fact, being slower than your opponent is why you're on the defensive anyway.  Getting even slower ain't gonna fix the problem.  If anything, getting slower practically ensures that you'll remain on the defensive.  Getting slower will limit your maneuverability at a time when you need all that you can get.  You create the overshoot by maneuvering to create angles and closure.  

As a matter of fact, if I'm going to be using a rolling scissors (in an F4U, as that's what I fly) I'm defensive, and trying my best to BUILD and MAINTAIN speed. NOT TO SLOW DOWN.  If I get too slow, I can't maneuver the way I need to, and I won't be able to transition to the offensive when I have the opportunity.  I'll be dropping flaps in a rolling scissors, and managing throttle too, and slowing down will result from that.  

Although it's a result, it isn't the goal.

Maybe someone who flies the hog more than I do can do things differently, but I find once my speed gets below 120mph (again, in the F4U) my ability to maneuver is practically nil.  That's what, 50% above stall speed?  There are points in my maneuvers where I'll slow down A LOT, but I'm not doing much maneuvering at all at those points...

Can you show us different results?

Here's a film of a rolling scissors.  Short, sweet, and to the point.  Drag the bad guy away from the crowd.  Separate him from his buds if I can.  Convince him I want to run, so he'll keep his speed up too (that will help me with the overshoot, as the faster he is, the faster I can be). "Dragging" him will also degrade his speed advantage, if he has one- note how similar we are in speed before I initiate the maneuver?

Speaking of speed- how slow do I go?  The slowest I got was 122mph (and only for a second), and while I was slow, I wasn't asking much of my ride...  (Note- I consider 120mph to be awful slow, even too slow, in a hog).  When I needed maneuverability, I was faster than that.  For my final shot, I was what, 165-170mph?  Here's the kicker- how do our speeds relate?  Look at how much time I spent with my speed actually being greater than his?  How does this work?  How does he go from behind me to in front of me, if I'm faster than him??!??!  The rolling scissors isn't about speed, or speed differential, it's about flight paths, angles, and closure.  Being "fast enough" allows me to maneuver to control those variables.

Start by getting some closure, the easiest way I've found is to get him approaching from the side.  Draw him into a lead shot, pull up out of his way before he can hit you, and then roll around him.  It starts as a Barrel Roll Defense, and progresses into a rolling scissors only if he agrees to play.  Fly a longer path than him, while covering less ground (less forward progress).  As he squirts out in front of you, shoot him.

http://www.4shared.com/file/173258664/ed95be6e/P38_overshoot.html

This isn't a thread about "how to do a rolling scissors", so I was tempted to not explain it.  At the same time, it's hard to "counter" something, when you don't understand it to begin with...

[boomerlu]

Maybe someone who flies the hog more than I do can do things differently, but I find once my speed gets below 120mph (again, in the F4U) my ability to maneuver is practically nil.  That's what, 50% above stall speed?  There are points in my maneuvers where I'll slow down A LOT, but I'm not doing much maneuvering at all at those points...

My guess is that what some perceive as the "ability to manuever while flying slowly" is just the Hog's stability at slower speeds - hanging on its prop, being a stable gun platform etc.

[mtnman]

My guess is that what some perceive as the "ability to manuever while flying slowly" is just the Hog's stability at slower speeds - hanging on its prop, being a stable gun platform etc.

Yup, it definitely has good guns.

The "hanging on the prop idea" is another one of those generalities I question.  So, one day when I was bored I went and checked it out...  I did "vertical prop-hanging" tests on several planes just to compare them, and to compare the torque rumors on them at the same time.

Basically, I didn't see much of a difference from one plane to another.  I'll go out on a limb here, and say that the prop-hanging and torque advantages and disadvantages are mostly a myth, at least in the vertical.  I was able to take planes I seldom fly at all, so have no "feel" for, and get them to do about the same as a plane I've flown extensively for years.  Minutes of experience, vs years of experience, and it didn't matter.  Plane type didn't matter.  Heck, I had to set my views up in the one that I thought would hang the best, and/or have the "worst" torque (109K4), and found it as kitten-like as any of the rest...

I tried it with flaps, and without.  The thing that seemed to matter the most (as far as the departure point, and type) was angle of entry.  One plane "felt" more at home, and it was the one I expected it to be (P38).  But even there, the difference in speed or "hang time" wasn't that much.  It just drops it's nose over nicely, without any tendency to spin.  More or less, all the planes are "out of control" once you hit about 65mph, and the best they can do is "coast" upward for another couple of seconds.  They all "fall" over in the 40mph range.  None "hang" at "zero" airspeed, they all fall over sooner than that...

I checked and filmed the F4U, 109, P51, Spit16, and P38.  I've tried others since then, but didn't bother to film them, as quite honestly, I felt they were all about the same...  I sure wouldn't say one has "wicked torque" or "hangs better" than any other, to any real extreme...

For that matter, I've actually flown the 109's for a few sorties this month, and don't see anything too terrible about them, or their guns (which I've heard are tough to master).  Just another plane...  Easier in a few respects than the one I always fly.  Kills weren't hard to come by...  Views are nice, guns are nice, speed and acceleration are great...  Goofy-lookin' plane to be sure, but not hard to fly.

Films, if anyone is excited enough to download them...

http://www.4shared.com/file/237192589/6ab038e3/F4U-1A.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/237192651/d38370c5/109K4.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/237192608/d7283c24/P51.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/237192596/e3141433/Spit16.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/237192625/9baf221b/P38.html

[boomerlu]

It might be a myth...

I think I was thinking more along the lines of... below 120 mph, the F4Us have a bit better ability to point their nose (i.e., not necessarily while hanging in the vertical).

That too may be a myth, I don't know.

As for the 109... the tater is really the only "difficulty". It's the combination of short firing time, slow ballistics, and slight inaccuracy (due to bullet dispersion) that made it annoying to learn as a primary plane. Go with the TA152, the extra ammo makes up for the other qualities a bit. You can afford to spray a bit more. That said, as I've learned gunnery and started to ease off the trigger, I find it easier and easier to tater, even with the 109 series.

With the 20mm... it's like any other plane. Ballistics are worse than Allied planes, but not terrible. Only real drawback to the series (that I feel) is the poor rear view.

[Ardy123]

I would say that the slow speed handling of the LW 109 can be a bit tricky due to the engine torque. In static tests its not that noticeable, but every now and then you want to roll right and climb and the plane just wont unless u snap roll it to the right.

[boomerlu]

I remember to throttle off for a split second if I want to roll right at really low speeds.

[cactuskooler]

I tried it with flaps, and without.  The thing that seemed to matter the most (as far as the departure point, and type) was angle of entry.  One plane "felt" more at home, and it was the one I expected it to be (P38).  But even there, the difference in speed or "hang time" wasn't that much.  It just drops it's nose over nicely, without any tendency to spin.  More or less, all the planes are "out of control" once you hit about 65mph, and the best they can do is "coast" upward for another couple of seconds.  They all "fall" over in the 40mph range.  None "hang" at "zero" airspeed, they all fall over sooner than that...

Bear in mind this is coming from a biased 38 driver who didn't test any other planes, but I gotta disagree about the 38. You can really hold it there longer than anything else and at a whim cut an engine to change directions with a hammerhead. 540 degree hammerheads are neat too.

Here's a film, it's in the first 30 seconds.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yzmjmzfog0n

[mtnman]

I would say that the slow speed handling of the LW 109 can be a bit tricky due to the engine torque. In static tests its not that noticeable, but every now and then you want to roll right and climb and the plane just wont unless u snap roll it to the right.

I get some funny little "roll quirks" with the F4U too, in certain instances.

I'm confused though, shouldn't the 109's torque make it "want" to roll right?  I thought the prop revolved opposite of an F4U?

[Saxman]

I get some funny little "roll quirks" with the F4U too, in certain instances.

I'm confused though, shouldn't the 109's torque make it "want" to roll right?  I thought the prop revolved opposite of an F4U?

I think it's only the Tempest, Spit XIV and maybe the Typhoon whose props revolve the opposite direction. Maybe one of the Russian rides, but I'm not sure about that....

And I agree, the F4U has some bizarre rolling tendencies at low speeds. She always wants to fall off on the left wing, even if you're going to the RIGHT (can't tell you how many times I've stalled out in a right hand turn only to snap over to the outside). She also doesn't even want to snap-roll to the right AT ALL.

I think the F4U would generate a lot fewer complaints if HTC increased her resistance to rolling to the right under low-speed, high-power situations like the 109s. IF data can be found that supports this behavior in the F4U, as she did incorporate a number of tricks into her airframe design to  reduce torque effects (IE: the vertical stabilizer was actually offset from the centerline for this exact reason).

[thorsim]

Often when I try to keep my speed up, it greatly increases the distance needed to pull my nose up at the bottom, causing me to overshoot. How are you overcoming this problem?

natural in the rolling scissor when this doesn't happen things are "funny".
you need to address your position while climbing and your energy needs while diving, which is what i said originally, along with my observations that this does not seem to be the case always in the games.