No Enemy Icons, The new standard

[Vulcan]

ICONS make it EASY to track an nme con's period, they in NO way make up for the human eye, the thing a lot seem to forget is the fact that seeing the nme first was the way most got there kills, in AH if you dont see an nme but happen to look around BAMM there is a huge neon sign over them, well that does not simulate the human eye, in the real world you could easily miss an nme right off your 6, I am sure many now realize, how Icons make it WAY easier to see, track and fire upon the nme.

Bollocks.

Stereo vision and other visual clues in the real world play a far greater role than AH or any other sim can provide.

[hlbly]

I am not against no icons . I have a question though . Without depth perception <which mine is excellent> and stereoscopic vision , how will the game compensate with out icons for the lack of these ?

[SD67]

Oddly enough, I had no troubles compensating on my own.
I cannot put my finger on how but it only took a little time before I had the hang of the whole no icon thing.

[gyrene81]

I am not against no icons . I have a question though . Without depth perception <which mine is excellent> and stereoscopic vision , how will the game compensate with out icons for the lack of these ?

The depth is there oddly enough, to point...getting used to what your looking at without red or green characters around it is another thing. Not many realize that normally in the game, when they are looking at another aircraft within icon range, thier first point of focus is the icon information, the plane is viewed secondary. You get used to it and depend on that information to tell you what you want to know...with enemy icons off you lose that immediate feedback, you have to focus on the plane itself...after doing it for a while you learn to look for more information from the aircraft object itself...wing and fueslage shape, cowling shape, markings, paint scheme, etc...and you learn to approximate distance just like you would in real life. Admittedly the biggest drawback is the zoom function...unless you adjust your zoom view to a specific point setting every time, it's easy to get confused about the distance to the other plane. I generally set mine so that when I hit the Z key I have a specific view of the dashboard and I leave it there until I get into a bomber or gv...and I have done it enough that I can replicate almost exactly the same view every time.

It sure does cut down on people taking long range potshots...you're not quite so accurate until you get used to the views and you find yourself wanting to get closer before taking a shot...it's a challenge and I suck bad enough I don't need more challenges but I turn enemy icons off almost every time I'm on.

[Ghosth]

I guess what I learned to do was watch for the roundels on the RAF planes. When I could pick them out clearly I was close enough to shoot, and hit what I was shooting at.

The information is there, its is a matter of learning to see it, and use it.

[SD67]

I think I did much the same thing.
I waited until I could see the insignia on the aircraft before I began to shoot. It didn't really help my gunnery much. That still sucked.

[hlbly]

The depth is there oddly enough, to point...getting used to what your looking at without red or green characters around it is another thing. Not many realize that normally in the game, when they are looking at another aircraft within icon range, thier first point of focus is the icon information, the plane is viewed secondary. You get used to it and depend on that information to tell you what you want to know...with enemy icons off you lose that immediate feedback, you have to focus on the plane itself...after doing it for a while you learn to look for more information from the aircraft object itself...wing and fueslage shape, cowling shape, markings, paint scheme, etc...and you learn to approximate distance just like you would in real life. Admittedly the biggest drawback is the zoom function...unless you adjust your zoom view to a specific point setting every time, it's easy to get confused about the distance to the other plane. I generally set mine so that when I hit the Z key I have a specific view of the dashboard and I leave it there until I get into a bomber or gv...and I have done it enough that I can replicate almost exactly the same view every time.

It sure does cut down on people taking long range potshots...you're not quite so accurate until you get used to the views and you find yourself wanting to get closer before taking a shot...it's a challenge and I suck bad enough I don't need more challenges but I turn enemy icons off almost every time I'm on.

Without stereoscopic vision there is no depth period .

[captain1ma]

i think they should leave icons on, for those of us who like icons. icons can be shut off manually, so if you dont want em, shut em off. make it an individual choice. i like minimal range icons, but not NO icons.

[gyrene81]

Without stereoscopic vision there is no depth period .

Then you need to recheck what you actually see because steroscopic vision is emulated fairly well...according to your judgment (that stereoscopic vision doesn't exist in AH) no one should be able to land a plane or dive toward the ground without augering since depth perception cannot be achieved without it.

[Kirin]

Without stereoscopic vision there is no depth period .

And there is no stereoscopic vision beyond like 10m distance in RL - the difference in angle is just too small. But still it will be cited whenever the icon/no icon discussion comes up. Beyond 10m our brain calculates distances or depth just the same as when staring at your screen - by relative size of objects, memorized pictures like landscapes and fleet point (dunno what the proper word in english is - german: Fucht oder Fluchtpunkt).

Above mentioned is why all those 3D computer gizmos don't work well with sims. Because there is no stereoscopic 3D beyond a certain point. You can get a nice 3D view of your cockpit but it won't change how you see the planes at 300yards - on the contrary you might even get the aquarium effect where those planes will look like fishies in a aquarium or toys in a box because the 3D effect is unrealistic and the object will appear to your brain to be much smaller and closer...

[Krusty]

You're wrong about steroscopic vision past 10m... I've read more than a handful of accounts where the best pilots at spotting distant aircraft were the ones that could (to paraphrase) "focus on infinity" or "unfocus their eye paths" while scanning around so they would be better able to spot stuff further out.

A single spec in the sky is easy to "blur out" and not notice if it's 2 miles out and your eyes are crossing (i.e. "focused") at half a mile.

Anybody defending "no icons" as realistic is just plain wrong, and doesn't understand the facts. We've had countless threads about this over an entire decade of debate. "no icons" loses every time.

Somebody posted a picture from an airline flying 30k-40k over some suburb in texas, clearly showing every detail from cars on the road to bright clear swimming pools in many yards.

Here's Niagara falls from 40k:
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/605170.jpg

Note that even when blurry the details allow you to see cars and trucks, roads, individual houses and the gaps between them.

REAL pilots have recounted in MANY threads how the human eye can see planes VERY clearly out to certain distances. Where AH has 2 black pixels, you'd already know the plane, it's orientation, colors, and any number of other details.

I've lived near airports (large or small) a number of times in my life. I live under the landing pattern of a small airport now (for the past 3-4 years). You can see EVERY detail on these small planes. Cessnas, some small twins, the occasional lear jet or two. You see everything from sharp color patterns, panel lines for the flaps and (when they're dirty/mucky) all along the belly the panel lines are distinct, you can tell the gear is out, what way it is facing, get a sense of its drift, its descent/ascent, it's acceleration (yes, sometimes they have to gun it a bit and you see them pull forward).

All that and I'm an amature! A real pilot ( or a real fighter pilot, ) can see WAY more than the crap you guys tout as "realistic".

Manuvering for a kill only to find at 200 yards it has RAF roundels on the wing is a totally absurd way to think "this replicates the human eye!"

I wish somebody would find the thread where somebody posted a no-icon screenshot of a plane within guns range or them during a dogfight, asking/polling forum readers what the plane was, it's distance, and orientation (facing you, heading away, etc). Almost nobody got it right. It was a good example of why "no icons" always fails in both gameplay and real world comparison.

P.S. I wonder if most of these "no icons" request come from folks fooled by IL2 "full switch" servers... They are also not realistic. Even the overly-complicated and artificially over-worked TargetWare had an icon system for IDing and ranging aircraft. Even THOSE guys realized that the human eye is way better than "no icons" can provide.

EDIT:

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying you can't enjoy a no-icons event now and again. Definitely SOME of you had a blast. However, trying to change the entire gameplay system of the FSO to meet a false idea of how the human eye works doesn't sit right with me, and I'll speak up to the contrary. Again, not saying "you can't have it your way" -- just saying "don't force me to have it your way too"...

[Motherland]

You're wrong about steroscopic vision past 10m... I've read more than a handful of accounts where the best pilots at spotting distant aircraft were the ones that could (to paraphrase) "focus on infinity" or "unfocus their eye paths" while scanning around so they would be better able to spot stuff further out.

A single spec in the sky is easy to "blur out" and not notice if it's 2 miles out and your eyes are crossing (i.e. "focused") at half a mile.

This is just an example of stereoscopic vision getting in the way... i.e. an advantage of not having it.

Here's Niagara falls from 40k:
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/605170.jpg

Note that even when blurry the details allow you to see cars and trucks, roads, individual houses and the gaps between them.

Note that cameras usually have a feature known as 'optical zoom'

I've lived near airports (large or small) a number of times in my life. I live under the landing pattern of a small airport now (for the past 3-4 years). You can see EVERY detail on these small planes. Cessnas, some small twins, the occasional lear jet or two. You see everything from sharp color patterns, panel lines for the flaps and (when they're dirty/mucky) all along the belly the panel lines are distinct, you can tell the gear is out, what way it is facing, get a sense of its drift, its descent/ascent, it's acceleration (yes, sometimes they have to gun it a bit and you see them pull forward).

Same here... I know that I can see as much/more with zoom in Aces High than I can in real life.

I wish somebody would find the thread where somebody posted a no-icon screenshot of a plane within guns range or them during a dogfight, asking/polling forum readers what the plane was, it's distance, and orientation (facing you, heading away, etc). Almost nobody got it right. It was a good example of why "no icons" always fails in both gameplay and real world comparison.

The plane in that thread had a head-on orientation to the viewer. Of course it's difficult to identify an aircraft from that orientation. I wish icons would dissapear in Aces High at certain orientations because it's simply near impossible to identify certain aircraft from head on, direct six etc.

P.S. I wonder if most of these "no icons" request come from folks fooled by IL2 "full switch" servers... They are also not realistic. Even the overly-complicated and artificially over-worked TargetWare had an icon system for IDing and ranging aircraft. Even THOSE guys realized that the human eye is way better than "no icons" can provide.

Well right now the requests are coming from those who have experienced identifying and fighting aircraft without icons in Aces High.

[Krusty]

You presume I don't have any experience either. That is incorrect.

Your argument about "at max AH zoom" -- we're not talking about max zoom with a FOV of 2 degrees (or whatever), we're talking full SA normal vision WHILE retaining all the level of detail that AH cannot display. It's much easier to see a sky with a "fight" going on, look at one dot, recognize it, look at another, all while flying into a BFM position to help your pals and hurt your foes, than it is to hit Z, zoom in to the max, adjusting nonstop for the drift of your plane vs your IDd plane, unzoom, find next, rezoom, readjust position ot track target for precious seconds while you try to ID it friend/foe, unzoom, pick the next... By the time you ID 1 target you're in the middle of the fight and screwed.

Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they. Your normal vision helps you do that without needing a zoom.

The niagara falls photo, and many others, can be found if you look. Some may use a zoom lens, some do not. Even real airline pilots have chimed in and said "you can see all that and more" in previous threads. Real airline pilots talking about what they see with their eyes, not talking about zoom lenses.

[Motherland]

You presume I don't have any experience either. That is incorrect.

Your argument about "at max AH zoom" -- we're not talking about max zoom with a FOV of 2 degrees (or whatever), we're talking full SA normal vision WHILE retaining all the level of detail that AH cannot display. It's much easier to see a sky with a "fight" going on, look at one dot, recognize it, look at another, all while flying into a BFM position to help your pals and hurt your foes, than it is to hit Z, zoom in to the max, adjusting nonstop for the drift of your plane vs your IDd plane, unzoom, find next, rezoom, readjust position ot track target for precious seconds while you try to ID it friend/foe, unzoom, pick the next... By the time you ID 1 target you're in the middle of the fight and screwed.

Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they. Your normal vision helps you do that without needing a zoom.

You're telling me that you can focus on a far off object and take the time to examine it while retaining your peripheral vision and keeping the focus of your mind elsewhere?
You can of course identify close up targets very quickly. It's only when things are very far away that you need to use zoom.

Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they.

I do it all the time in the MA's to identify planes that are out of icon range or whose icons are in some other way obscured.

[gyrene81]

P.S. I wonder if most of these "no icons" request come from folks fooled by IL2 "full switch" servers... They are also not realistic. Even the overly-complicated and artificially over-worked TargetWare had an icon system for IDing and ranging aircraft. Even THOSE guys realized that the human eye is way better than "no icons" can provide.

EDIT:

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying you can't enjoy a no-icons event now and again. Definitely SOME of you had a blast. However, trying to change the entire gameplay system of the FSO to meet a false idea of how the human eye works doesn't sit right with me, and I'll speak up to the contrary. Again, not saying "you can't have it your way" -- just saying "don't force me to have it your way too"...

You must have played a lot of IL2 and Targetware...because you keep bringing them up. We're talking AH and the 3D environment within AH...not some other game.

Have you tried the no enemy icons setting? And if you have, did you give yourself enough time to stop being dependent on the icons, determine distances and set the zoom function for optimal use in simulating focal point vision? I have, and aside from the limitations of pixel rendering at great distances...no icons can be as close to real world as a pixel rendered 3d environment can get...of course real life is much more vivid and detailed.

Realistically? It's just not realistic. Nobody is using max zoom to ID planes, nor should they. Your normal vision helps you do that without needing a zoom.

You're sure about that? Ever do any long range shooting without a scope? I have, and I can tell you for sure how wrong you are. Stereoscopic vision has nothing to do with the ability to see detail...it's what gives us depth perception...not the ability to focus on a single point and enhance detail like a pair of binoculars. A person can use just one eye to focus on a distant object and see detail to the level that the human eye is capable of. You are correct though that no one uses the max zoom function in AH...they don't generally have to because of the icons and in AH, fighter size aircraft beyond 5000 yds are shown as a dark mass of pixels regardless of how far you zoom in...whereas in real life an object at that range (15,000 feet) an object the size of a WWII fighter would have enough detail to see that it is an airplane.