Author Topic: Me109 G6 vs P51  (Read 5035 times)

Offline Ardy123

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Me109 G6 vs P51
« on: March 04, 2010, 05:49:44 PM »
according to wikipedia the P51 has a lighter wing loading. One would expect it to be able to out turn the 109 then. Are the coefficient of lift that drastically different?

wikipedia 109 g6: 40lb/ft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109
wikipedia p51 D: 39lb/ft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mustang

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Offline tf15pin

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2010, 06:24:32 PM »
My guess would be that the laminar flow wing on the P-51 does not perform as well at low speed as the 109's wing.

Offline Ruler2

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2010, 06:37:07 PM »
I think thats the case, because the laminar flow wing provides less lift, while producing less drag as well, which is one of the reasons the 51 is one of the faster planes.

Offline Stoney

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 09:57:25 PM »
1.  Wingloading isn't everything when it comes to sustained turn performance.
2.  I'd be curious to see how those "loaded" weights broke down.  More typical for a P-51 to weigh in excess of 10,000 at a moderate fuel load, which pushes its wingloading back up in the 42 range vice 39.  I'm curious as to whether or not that's a heavy weight for a 109G6.
3.  Laminar flow airfoils at normal, cruise Reynolds numbers, are actually quite high lift airfoils--some of the highest actually.  They will be THE highest lift/drag ratio airfoils at their design lift coefficient.  They do generally have poorer performance at lower R numbers though, and certainly have higher drag coefficients when they are operated only a few degrees AoA away from their design lift coefficient.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 10:00:01 PM by Stoney »
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Offline WMGambit

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2010, 08:04:13 AM »
Im not attempting to even think I know what Im talking about as Ive only been playing a year and still have much to learn, but in a turn fight doesn't the 51 have 109 at the higher speeds but after 1-11/2 turns the speed drop off and the 109 gain the upper hand?  As I said, this is just what I have heard and seems to happen anytime Im in the 109.  I do not use the Pony for turn fighting, mainly just an attack/BnZ aircraft and it serves me very well...I tried to do the turn fight thing last month and compared to the month before, it wasn't good, lol.  Good luck and hope you find out what your lookin for.

Offline druski85

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2010, 08:45:02 AM »
I love it when ponies go into sustained engagements in me G-6.   :aok

Regarding the numbers, I believe stoney nailed it.

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2010, 08:57:54 AM »
1.  Wingloading isn't everything when it comes to sustained turn performance.
2.  I'd be curious to see how those "loaded" weights broke down.  More typical for a P-51 to weigh in excess of 10,000 at a moderate fuel load, which pushes its wingloading back up in the 42 range vice 39.  I'm curious as to whether or not that's a heavy weight for a 109G6.
3.  Laminar flow airfoils at normal, cruise Reynolds numbers, are actually quite high lift airfoils--some of the highest actually.  They will be THE highest lift/drag ratio airfoils at their design lift coefficient.  They do generally have poorer performance at lower R numbers though, and certainly have higher drag coefficients when they are operated only a few degrees AoA away from their design lift coefficient.

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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2010, 09:47:00 AM »
Don't remember the exact game weights but that 40lbs/ft is pretty much the figure for G-6's normal take-off weight without any external stores. If I remember correctly G-6's Clmax in clean configuration is about 1.4 with slats out. One thing that will help the G-6 against P-51D in general maneuvering contest is greater amount of excess thrust.
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Offline Westy

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2010, 09:51:08 AM »
 Planes don't out turn other planes. Pilots do by knowing their planes strengths and
the weaknesses of their opponents aircraft.

 But if you're turn fighting at 5k in AH then right off the bat you messed up as you're
attempting to correlate real world physics and encounters with the utter fantasy
world that is the main arena.

 

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2010, 11:03:21 AM »
2*WL/rho*Cl*sin(theta) = R (turn radius - sustained)

First, yes, Stoney knows his stuff and doesn't give bum steers. Thank god for that because the last thing this place needs is another bullsh*t thrower. I'm still sick of hearing Thrash ragefully emote (i.e., devoid of fact or reason) against the Spixteen.

Second, the equation above is a simple expression of what drives Radius - Wingloading lives in the denom and high is bad. That's quite clear.

However, this powerloading deal is critical, too, since sin(theta) approaches max as bank angle theta approaches 90. While sustaining a 90 is out of the question, it takes excess power to overcome the increased in lift-dependent drag required as you bank. Thus, as noted in a previous post here, yes, powerloading is also important since it determines your max bank.

I also think Stoney's practical consideration for the P-51's eminently "loadable" airframe (all that range is achieved by a combination of the low drag afforded by the lf wings and airframe design PLUS a whopping fuel load) is also valid - .i.e., you MIGHT see a P-51 at the lower edge of it's WL range but then, monkeys MIGHT also fly from my butt. Generally, people fly with a significant proportion of fuel. They get nervous when it gets low - even if low in a 51 isn't nearly the same as low in a 109.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2010, 12:52:19 PM »
Thank god for that because the last thing this place needs is another bullsh*t thrower.


I wasn't trying tho be a 'bullsh*t' thrower or state anything was wrong with the flight model, I was just curious, because of the numbers.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2010, 01:04:34 PM »

I wasn't trying tho be a 'bullsh*t' thrower or state anything was wrong with the flight model, I was just curious, because of the numbers.

Excuse me, Ardy. Did someone accuse you of being a roadkill thrower?


I was using this thread as a means of fingering thrash for his unmoored rage at the Spixteen. It has nothing, as far as I know, to do with you.


Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2010, 01:10:20 PM »
Excuse me, Ardy. Did someone accuse you of being a bullsoup thrower?
I was using this thread as a means of fingering thrash for his unmoored rage at the Spixteen. It has nothing, as far as I know, to do with you.

I didn't think you were directly accusing me, but all to often these threads turn into 'the flight model is porked' by certain members, or the flame fests around that kinda nonsense, so I figured I'd set the record straight right off the bat.
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Offline Strip

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2010, 01:30:59 PM »
Depending on the weight a good pony stick can give a 109G6 all it can handle....

Of course I fly light and stretch that fuel load like a rubber band. Your right, most people fly way to heavy in both models of the P-51. They also dont cruise at the right altitude, mostly too low and too slow. Way to often I see people start to descend and build up speed. The reality is if your fuel critical the first thing you should do is throttle back to normal power and climb to 12.5k (D) or 17k (B). Once your speed is in the high 300's then go to max cruise...

Surviving a turn fight in a P-51 starts with fuel management, if you fight heavy your dead in this case. Get down below 50% and look for a 109G6 with a little fuel on board. Given equal pilots it should  make for interesting fight and 50/50 on the outcome. If the 109 fights uphill the P-51 is in trouble, downhill goes to the Pony.

Above 20k the advantage starts to go to the P-51 regardless....

Strip

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Me109 G6 vs P51
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2010, 02:14:40 PM »
I didn't think you were directly accusing me, but all to often these threads turn into 'the flight model is porked' by certain members, or the flame fests around that kinda nonsense, so I figured I'd set the record straight right off the bat.

Okay. We're on the same side of that.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.