N1K2

[RAM]

Well first of all this is no whining post, but neither it is a completelly well documented post, as I had no film on when it happened.

Tonight I have flown some time in a H2H with some spanish guys. I engaged a N1K2 with a 109G10 (50% fuel with some 10% already spent, no gondolas, 30mm cannon). The Niki started with advantage, but I dived and levelled several times until the speed was on my side. Co alt, I was a bit faster.

At 1.5K or so I felt quite safe to start a zoom away, I repeat, I was faster and co alt. I started a 45º zoom, starting from some 10K. The niki started closing, as expected. When he hit 1.0K I went pure vertical, planning the hammerhead. The niki pulled vertical after me.

While I was stalling, HE STILL WAS CLOSING. Before I could make the hammerhead he had wiped me out of the sky from less than 200 yards. The altitude was 17K.

Later the same story happened, with a different guy but ending at 10K.

So, a N1K2 can OUTCLIMB and OUTZOOM a 109G10?...

I'm missing something here?...

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-23-2000).]

[Wardog]

Yup........

Your missing the Sakia, 109s dont run on it..

[Hanzo-]

Your logic is entirely failed.
N1K2 never can outclimb 109G10 when both planes have almost equal energy , and strictly speaking , 109G10 cannot outclimb N1K2 easily in the method tested by you .  

[Citabria]

"operationally the shiden kai was used mainly for home defense and proved itself to be a top class fighter. on one celebrated occasion, a single took on 12 US Navy hellcats, destroying 4 and driving the others away."


normal loaded n1k2 weight: 8818lbs max loaded 10,714lbs, empty: 5858 lbs
has 2000 hp engine
fowler flaps
laminar flow wings
4 20mm cannon (wich reportedly should hold more ammo... 900 rounds instead of 600)

keep in mind I am an impartial and open minded participant in this discussion. I fly all the planes in AH including the n1k2.

my view on the aircraft is that it is a rice burner on steroids with a big snarly engine with an airframe optimised for turning and burning. essentially this plane is the forthcoming hellcats worst nightmare.

if your in a plane slower than the n1k2 fight with your hair on fire and go for the throat if your faster b&z from above and stay honest: do not attempt following its wingtip turn radius even a little bit.

some stats on the AH n1k2 vs its U.S. pacific theatre would be adversaries (p38s never fought n1k2s though)


The N1K2 has 345 kills and has been killed 321 times against the P-51D. go back to the eto stang  

The N1K2 has 521 kills and has been killed 510 times against the Spitfire Mk IX. they both turn on a dime and dive/climb like bats out of hell

The N1K2 has 31 kills and has been killed 38 times against the P-47D-25.   go D25!

The N1K2 has 212 kills and has been killed 152 times against the P-47D-30. average d30 dweeb has some trouble with the n1k2  

The N1K2 has 208 kills and has been killed 113 times against the P-38L. stick a fork in the lightning its done  

The N1K2 has 344 kills and has been killed 571 times against the F4U-1C. the snapshot and top speed saves the f4u1c because all you will get on an n1k2 is a snapshot.

The N1K2 has 131 kills and has been killed 72 times against the F4U-1D. no snapshot = turning for trackingshot with george = dead corsair or hog that ran away with no kill.


as you can see this is not a plane to tangle with in a knife fight with anything less than a spit. even in an energy fight the clock is winding down in the n1k2s favor and if the attacker doesn't kill it they must flee once they loose their altitude advantage

heres me bragging----------->  
 Citabria has 9 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the N1K2.
 Citabria has 6 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-38L against the N1K2
 Citabria has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the N1K2.
 
Citabria has 20 kills and has been killed 4 times in the N1K2.
 Citabria has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the N1K2 against the F4U-1C.
 
oh let us not forget the 202 uberness benchmark...  
 Citabria has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time in the C.202 against the N1K2.
 

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hanzo-:
and strictly speaking , 109G10 cannot outclimb N1K2 easily in the method tested by you .  

Can you please tell me why?. Because I cant understand it. Charts for N1K2-J show a climbrate at 17K of something near 3000FPM.

109G10 has 4000fpm at that same altitude.

I know that chart shows SUSTAINED climbrates, still 109G10 is (Should be) the best zoom climber in AH, and still it is catched by a slightly lesser-E N1K2.

BTW N1K2 should be a decent zoomer, but by no means excell at it. It is a TnB plane with ability to do some good E-fighting given the chance...but it is no E-fighter. At least is this way as I saw it in previous versions.

I dont see your argument here, sorry.


Citabria: ok, Niki is an outstanding plane,one not to be taken lightly. Agree 100%. But a N1K2 outzooming a equal-E 109G10 (let alone a higher E) is downright ridiculous.

IMO.

[wells]

Pure energy conversion RAM.

Here's some examples:

300 mph plane can zoom about 3000'

250 mph plane can zoom about 2100'

Difference is less than 1000' (300yrdS), easily still within guns range.  You need 100 mph difference in speed at least when co-alt, or else 3000' more (co-speed) in order for a pure hammerhead to work as you intended it to.

 

Charts for
                N1K2-J show a climbrate at 17K of something near 3000FPM.

                109G10 has 4000fpm at that same altitude.

This may be true, how long would it take to get a 3000' altitude advantage (1000yrds) to avoid guns?  about 3 minutes, right?  That's a LONG time.

[This message has been edited by wells (edited 09-23-2000).]

[RAM]

OK wells, I understand that. But when a plane has a cushion of 1.5K and is, say, 10mph faster (I was gaining space on him!), When it also has a significantly better climbrate and acceleration, I cant believe that it can be caught that easily.In fact I cant believe that it can be caught AT ALL.

Also,keep in mind that we aren't talking about long range shots.

I repeat, by the point where I had to start the hammerhead, HE WAS STILL CLOSING quite fast. At 200yars he opened fire and blew me to little pieces...and he was still closing!.

So that plane closed 1.3K,following me up to the point when I was in the top of my hammerhead? starting from a slightly lesser E situation than mine?

I say that I am missing something here...

Zooming or not zooming, N1K2 shouldnt catch a Co-E G10 ,let alone a faster one. And less that easily.

 

how long would it take to get a 3000' altitude advantage (1000yrds) to avoid guns? about 3 minutes, right? That's a LONG time.

Starting from 0yards separation? right. Starting from 1.5K separation and 5-10mph speed difference on the G10 side?...

The N1K2 should fall out of the sky before the G10 rans out of E, wells. It is E-trading between speed and altitude and G10 should be the king in that kingdom...

I wont cry BS, but I want to know if this is right, and why, because I have the feeling that it is NOT right.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-23-2000).]

[easymo]

 Ive killed 8 109,s in a single sorti. And that was back in ver 1.03

[RAM]

in 1.03 I used to kill loads of 109G10s   Why? they were handled stupidly, it was taken as the god's ride, the untouchable UFO. And In lower-E Fw190A5s and Me109G10s I had no problems in eating them  

[easymo]

 I was in a nik

[RAM]

But the 109g10s kept on doing stupidities anyway (exception made of REAL G10 pilots, of course   ) ,regardless of the plane you were in  

Anyway I'm pretty sure that none of those kills that you did happened when you,in your N1K2, outzoomed a higher E climbing G10   I am right, isnt it?  



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]

[wells]

 

OK wells, I understand that. But when a plane has a cushion of 1.5K and is,
          say, 10mph faster (I was gaining space on him!), When it also has a
          significantly better climbrate and acceleration

10 mph won't help you in the vertical at any speed.  It'll keep you out of harms way in the horizontal though.  Even a brick can climb like a 109 in the vertical if you throw it at the same speed.  

Anyway, the whole idea of doing a hammerhead is that the guy following you can't pull his nose up after you without stalling, which means you need an 'angle' advantage, not so much a speed advantage.  You need to be directly above him and he has to be slow enough that he can't pull his nose vertical.

Will a 109g10 outclimb a George with stall horns blaring?  That's the real issue here.  What is the angle of climb in that case?  If you have the advantage there, then zoom at that angle until you hear your stall horn.  Watch the George...when he is no longer gaining distance, his speed is as low as yours and he cannot pull his nose up any more than you, then reverse on him.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by wells:
10 mph won't help you in the vertical at any speed.  It'll keep you out of harms way in the horizontal though.  Even a brick can climb like a 109 in the vertical if you throw it at the same speed.

How is that? more speed means more E, more E means that you can trade that speed for altitude. 10mph can be a little E difference, but it IS a difference.

Anyway, the whole idea of doing a hammerhead is that the guy following you can't pull his nose up after you without stalling, which means you need an 'angle' advantage, not so much a speed advantage.  You need to be directly above him and he has to be slow enough that he can't pull his nose vertical.

Bassically I do hammerheads with the idea that the guy after me wont be able to climb as I did. So starting with a bit of E advantage and in a better climber aircraft I should be able to pull a vertical climb longer than the other plane, because my plane:

A) has more E to start with
B) has better ways to change Speed to Altitude (better climber and/or zoomer).

Will a 109g10 outclimb a George with stall horns blaring?  That's the real issue here.  What is the angle of climb in that case?  If you have the advantage there, then zoom at that angle until you hear your stall horn.  Watch the George...when he is no longer gaining distance, his speed is as low as yours and he cannot pull his nose up any more than you, then reverse on him.

Wells, this is not the case you describe. 109G10 is the best zoomer in aces high (or at least SHOULD be). I am describing a situation where a N1K2 with a bit less of Energy caught me in a perfectly executed zoom, ended in a vertical climb. I expected range to be closed (pitagoras told it a lot of time ago), and that is why I executed it in a 45º zoom first and then in vertical, so the N1K2 wont close by the short way.

In 1.03 I did this same move thousands of times, I have endless films on it done on Spitfires and N1K2s. New FM is said to enhance turnrates, but Pyro stated that it wont affect climb capabilities:

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
The biggest change will be a decrease in how fast planes lose speed in turns, but many other subtle changes have been made as well.  There are no planned changes for basic aircraft performance such as top speed and rate of climb.

In other words, the very same tactic I used in 1.03 should work now. But it doesnt.

 




[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]

[easymo]

 If I told you how I did it. It wouldnt work anymore  . Lets just say g10 drivers tend to overestimate there climb speed.

 I will say this for the 109. It is an ammo sponge. Dont get out the charts and graphs though. Im sure the damage model is right on. lol

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-24-2000).]

[wells]

 

How is that? more speed means more E, more E means that you can
                trade that speed for altitude. 10mph can be a little E difference, but it
                IS a difference.

Yep it is, unfortunately it's not enough to help you in a zoom

110 vs 100 mph = 70'
210 vs 200 mph = 137'
310 vs 300  mph = 203'
410 vs 400 mph = 270'
510 vs 500 mph = 337'

Climb ability is not the same as zoom ability.  Sure, the superior acceleration of the 109 will allow it to gain an advantage, but that advantage is tiny in a zoom climb.

What did we say, 3 minutes in a sustained climb to gain a 3000' advantage?  Guess how long it takes to do a zoom climb from 300 mph?  About 14 seconds straight up, or 19 seconds at a 45.  How much of an advantage can your superior acceleration give you in 14-19 seconds?  About 200-300 feet worth, again, not enough to help you.

[This message has been edited by wells (edited 09-24-2000).]