N1K2

[Jigster]

RAM, remember you blew some E to pull into the vertical (G's, and all that good stuff)

That alone could of been enough to kill your advantage if the N1K2 chose to pull a little more gradual while following you.

The N1K2 like most TnB's can turn quicker with less G's, so during the last pull into the pure vertical he would of most likely been able to pull on you with less E loss to G's allowing him to do follow, negating your superior climb with a zoom.

Of course that's on the basis that you pulled hard into pure vertical. Really don't matter on the first part because with a slight nose attitude change he can cut the time till his flight path intercepts yours with a small intial adjustment.

And it sounds like that's exactly what happened.

- Jig

[Fishu]

Simple reason: Me109's loses E like drunks while N1K2 retains E like a train.

[StSanta]

Well, I gotta second RAM's experience. I've met N1K's many times now, and several times I've been doing close to 350, met a N1K that did a 180 hard turn, zoomed with me, gained, an only by luck and sideslip have I managed to get away.

N1K might have had more speed after a dive, sure. But this is pretty consistant.

Also had situations where I've been faster than him (checked with the N1K pilot), he did 180 sharp turn, I did very gentle 45 degree pullup, increased to vertical, only to see N1K gain.

I was in the A5.

N1K has benefitted tremendously from 1.04. Maybe a bit too much, dunno.



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Jigster:
RAM, remember you blew some E to pull into the vertical (G's, and all that good stuff)

That alone could of been enough to kill your advantage if the N1K2 chose to pull a little more gradual while following you.

The N1K2 like most TnB's can turn quicker with less G's, so during the last pull into the pure vertical he would of most likely been able to pull on you with less E loss to G's allowing him to do follow, negating your superior climb with a zoom.

Of course that's on the basis that you pulled hard into pure vertical. Really don't matter on the first part because with a slight nose attitude change he can cut the time till his flight path intercepts yours with a small intial adjustment.

And it sounds like that's exactly what happened.

- Jig

Humm,yes, that's why I pulled a low G move to an 45º attitude, and when I saw him following me, and judged the right moment, I pulled low G move again to get a vertical move. I always do it in 2 stages so the E loss and Pitagoras ( ) don't kill me.

I understand that I can blew some E, I understand that I can give him a shorter way to come for me. But I cant stand that when my G10 starts to stall, the N1K2 has enough E to export, and while my G10 is halfway the hammerhead, the N1K2 still has an incredible closure rate.

I repeat I have done this a lot of times in 1.03 and previous, and I rarely was catched.

Now I AM catched...

I smell something weird here, sorry  

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

I gotta agree with StSanta and RAM the N1K2s do some startling things in the vertical since 1.04. They seem to be able to climb vertical after your zoom climb and just at the top when my G10 is hanging on its prop they keep coming up, and instead of stalling and falling off they still have energy to level off and pull tight evasives to avoid the hammerhead. I have seen this plenty of times even after they maneuver hard to avoid you before. I know it was a great plane in RL but something just doesnt add up in its vertical performance after hard manouvering.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Kirin]

X/    see my post in the gameplay forum...

[Vermillion]

RAM, your also forgetting that he can "cut the angle" on you, so that he has a shorter distance to go.

This is because he is 1.5k behind you he can see your manuever as you start and point his nose towards where you are going, and not take the same path you did.

So your faster, but he went a shorter distance.

This graphic may be a little exaggerated but it illustrates the point very well.

   

So the reason, is the pure physics of Energy as Wells stated, plus simple geometry.

If an enemy already has your six (his nose to your tail), you should extend to at least 3k, and probably 4k distance, before you try a vertical reversal.

You have to have reached the apex of your hammerhead and get your nose around, before he can get within guns range. Or you will usually die as in this case.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 09-24-2000).]

[RAM]

Hehe Verm, I know it. Its why I said that Pitagoras could kill me  

I dont think this is the case, as he seemed to do a pure pursuit, not a lead one. So I dont think that he cut angles on me. Of course I can be wrong (Damnit, I wish I had film), but that is what seemed from my point of view.

Anyway, cutting angles or not, when I am at the apex of my climb, the N1K should at least be running out of E. But he was closing real fast.This guy was going to go HIGHER than me!...So, the N1K2 Zooms BETTER than a G10?...

as I said before, I was used to do this very same maneouver in 1.03, and had a lot of success doing it against nikis and Spitfires...but since 1.04 this maneover is suicidal.

[Minotaur]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
<snip>

as I said before, I was used to do this very same maneouver in 1.03, and had a lot of success doing it against nikis and Spitfires...but since 1.04 this maneover is suicidal.

Get over it, this is not 103.  

From what I have heard 109's were not that good at zoom, because they were a very light plane.  Climb yes, zoom no.  Heavy planes zoom better and the George has a 2000Hp radial engine.  It has very good low altitude performance.  You got beat on a zoom.  

Next time use your E advantage and climb ability.  Drag him into a tight spiral climb.  

How much fun would the game be if your beloved LW rides did everything better?

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Who's next?"
Naso

[RAM]

 

How much fun would the game be if your beloved LW rides did everything better?

I dont understand this statement. I think this thread hasn't had a single whine, still you have to do that comment.

Until now I understood that 109G10 should be the better zoomer in AH because it has the best powerloading hands down.

IT isnt that way?. Fine. Then I missed the point for 8 months whithout ever noticing it.

I dont say LW planes should do everything better. G10 is now next to useless unless the other guy is stupid, Fw190A5 has very weak topspeed and A8 still is a brick.

Is something to wonder about when the best LW plane right now is 109G2...

Of course, if it is as it was in RL, then its fine. I posted that a N1K2 outzoomed my G10, thinking it shouldnt be able to do it.

you say it was able to do it?. Fine.

Changing rides to N1K2.

[Fishu]

Let's wait till they find out N1K2 outzooming their P-51s and such..  

Ops.. I forgot that their fighters outzooms nicely too.

[Minotaur]

Ram;

Very sorry, but your initial post did not seem whine, but a very valid concern.  I thought is was very structured and up front.  Your umpteenth post in this thread, however did seem whine.

Read This

Also re-read, this thread for comments that Wells made here.  IMO you spend move time typing than trying to understand.

Heavier Plane = Better Zoom
Higher E Retention Plane = Better Zoom

You got beat in a zoom!  

Ver 1.03 had tons of parasitic drag, this effected the N1K2 a whole lot.  1.04 is a whole new game.

BTW the N1K2 is no slouch on power, especially at low altitudes.  I agree with you.  You  should learn to fly it, so that you know how to beat it.

Good Luck!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo

[AKDejaVu]

 

I dont think this is the case, as he seemed to do a pure pursuit, not a lead one. So I dont think that he cut angles on me. Of course I can be wrong (Damnit, I wish I had film), but that is what seemed from my point of view.

Verm is correct RAM and your view is probably biased.

Stop and ask yourself this.  How many times as an enemy 1.5k in front of you gone verticle... only to have you fly straight and level until you reached the point he started his climb before you actually pull up?

The answer is never.

The persuer has the advantage if you decide to attempt verticle maneuvers.  Especially at a 1k-2k range.  You'd better have a TON of energy on someone before attempting this.  "I was extending" isn't really enough.

He cut you off.. pure and simple.

AKDejaVu

[Minotaur]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
Let's wait till they find out N1K2 outzooming their P-51s and such..  

Ops.. I forgot that their fighters outzooms nicely too.

LOL    

As always Fishu, you don't dissapoint.  Your LW favortism is really commendable, I know that you love them.  I think however, you will find that the George does just that of late.  BTW, it also zoomed nicely prior to the new 1.04 FM.

1.04 sure upset alot of things.  Planes that dominated before, no longer do so.  The re-learning adjustment phase is still in progress.  

Look at the popularity of the Yak these days.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Minotaur:
Ram;

Very sorry, but your initial post did not seem whine, but a very valid concern.  I thought is was very structured and up front.  Your umpteenth post in this thread, however did seem whine.

Whine was my answer to your post. I am keeping (or trying to keep) a cool head while trying to understand why this move is not valid anymore. I dont think any of the previous posts are whining, but lack of understanding.

I started from the assumption that G10 is the best zoomer in AH. Obviously I was wrong, but didnt notice until latest posts. I read what wells said, I understood it, but still didnt know why a N1K2 could outzoom a better zooming plane with more E.

Turns out that G10 is not that good zoomer? Great. I was wrong, and it is okay. But I didnt notice it until you said that G10 shouldnt outzoom a N1K2.

BTW I didnt read thread that you linked. I missed it (I was out of town   ) and when I returned I only had time to check some (not all) threads.

Anyway I still think that your comment was a bit out of line. In no way I was whining, at least was not my intention. Simply I could not understand what was going on.

Said that, I still think that N1K2 has too much E retention...but well I have nothing but feeling to proof it so I'll shuddup...

for now  

 

Stop and ask yourself this. How many times as an enemy 1.5k in front of you gone verticle... only to have you fly straight and level until you reached the point he started his climb before you actually pull up?

I have killed lots of planes that way, yes. But if the other guy starts a 45-50º zoom away and THEN after some time pulls a vertical move, believe me, I know I can be in deep toejam.

1.5K was a very little separation. I know it, It was a H2H and I wanted to do it a close call. In MA I'd have waited for 2-2.5K.

Still when I saw him climbing like a rocket towards me, I got the feeling that something was really weird there.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]