Dewoitine D.520

[Scherf]

That's like, poetry, man.

[SmokinLoon]

The D520 would be a good fit, it is very similar to the 109E-4 in performance but with a better turn radius (going from memory). 

Yeah, the French had the more numerous Bloch but it was due to be phased out for the D520 anyways.

I too vote YES on the D520.  It would represent the French well.   

[sparow]

Hi all!

Aces High will not be complete until the French Air Force is represented to a certain extent. IMHO, 2 fighters, 1 twin-engined heavy-fighter/light bomber and 1 bomber would be representative of the French air war. And many could be skinned as Vichy fighters and used in North African setups.

Expanding the Italian, Soviet and Japanese planeset should be done after the French. The Romanian IAR-80 and other exotica last.

+ 1 (right after the He-111)

Cheers,

[stealth]

What do you guys think of this plane anyway didn't seem to go to fast or for that matter be a good combat plane.

[Impakt]

Thanks---I have been advocating for this ride since I came over in 2008 (posted on it April 15 of that year). The fact that it was somewhat rare in the Battle of France is compensated for by the fact that it was used in Torch and by German units. It is the most elegant of the French planes and the most likely to get used.

I can't give internet sources but:
 Operation Torch, Anglo-American invastion of North Africa, Campaign 22,[Ballantine's Illustrated History Violent Century (Paperback)]. This book gives a lot of info about the machinations in French North Africa---including the Jean Bart and Mark Clark's secret mission via submarine to negotiate with Admiral Darlan.



This book gives some good accounts of the air war both before, during, and after Torch.

http://www.aviationsupermart.com/store/p/16033-French-Aces-Of-WW-II.html?feed=froogle



More here which also mentions Luftwaffe, Bulgarian, Rumanian use of plane.
http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Dewoitine%20D.520.htm

[Rino]

Hi all!

Aces High will not be complete until the French Air Force is represented to a certain extent. IMHO, 2 fighters, 1 twin-engined heavy-fighter/light bomber and 1 bomber would be representative of the French air war. And many could be skinned as Vichy fighters and used in North African setups.

Expanding the Italian, Soviet and Japanese planeset should be done after the French. The Romanian IAR-80 and other exotica last.

+ 1 (right after the He-111)

Cheers,

     That's alot of hardware to support a campaign that only lasted till May 1940.  Torch operations were even shorter
than that!

[Karnak]

Hi all!

Aces High will not be complete until the French Air Force is represented to a certain extent. IMHO, 2 fighters, 1 twin-engined heavy-fighter/light bomber and 1 bomber would be representative of the French air war. And many could be skinned as Vichy fighters and used in North African setups.

Expanding the Italian, Soviet and Japanese planeset should be done after the French. The Romanian IAR-80 and other exotica last.

+ 1 (right after the He-111)

Cheers,

The French and Italians are minor players compared to the Americans, British, Russians, Germans and Japanese.  The Russian and Japanese sets need to be fleshed out, they were major combatants and have very limited representation in AH right now.  Even the British set needs, at the minimum, the Wellington so that there is an early war bomber the Axis can actually fight.

[321BAR]

Er... I said the HURRICANES had 2-blade fixed pitch props.. The spits from that time also had lesser performance because of the lack of constant-speed propellors. less climb, acceleration, and our BOB-era Spit Mk.Ia uses 100 octane. I only lumped the spit in there as a comparison for what a D.520 might go up against. I probably should not have, since NONE fought in the BOF. The few Hurricane squads the Brits sent over depleted UK reserves to the point a letter was sent saying "You have to decide now: Defend France or Defend us, because we can't do both" -- and the decision was made to send no more to France.

little off topic but in our BoB scenarios, the SpitI HurriI were already outdated also... the SpitV was already in production even though flown in small numbers.

Edit: i mean to say this to back up timeline differences from reality and game

[stealth]

Really all these planes look the same like the Russian ones all those yaks basically the same.

[Krusty]

A larger percentage of RAF fighters were committed to the defense of France than of French fighters, FYI.  No need to spread bullsoup about a "few" Hurricane squads sent over causing the depletion of RAF fighter command, a gross misrepresentation of what happened.

That's a crock of "soup" ....

Hundreds and hundreds of French aircraft were flown in the BOF. The few Hurricane squadrons sent over were squandered, lost, or pulled back. At the time, the RAF was barely able to produce them enough for themselves, let alone other nations. That's why the BEF sent out gladiatiors, because they didn't have any more Hurricanes to "waste" on foreign expeditions.

[Impakt]

The French and Italians are minor players compared to the Americans, British, Russians, Germans and Japanese.  ht.

  Several points could be made here. (1) Often this game is used to simulate campaigns in scenarios. Often the peripheral  fronts are a lot of fun Finland, China-Burma-India, the Med --so French planes would contribute and their absence is a glaring omission.  (2) The D-520 played a MUCH more important role in WWII than the TA-152 and THAT is in the game. The Sherman firefly---is an odd, eccentric choice (1 tank in 4 in UK/ Commonwealth units only) BUT it is out there. (3) Broad brush statements about "minor players" can be misleading. France lost roughly as many people as we did. Since 75% of German casualties were taken on the Eastern front, one could argue that the US was a minor player in Europe. (4) France---was there in the war---in the Battle of France, in Norway, in Free French, and Vichy units. By the time of the invasion of southern France the French contributed five active divisions (2 Armored, 3 infantry) to the effort in the west.

 So, the D-520 deserves a place. After that, I would say that an Italian bomber, Yak-3, and the Swordfish (Bismarck, Italian fleet Taranto , eg.) would be nice add ons.

[firemike]

I would not say the US was a minor player in Europe because of the stratigec bombing offensive

[JHerne]

I believe he was speaking metaphorically. Obviously, the US played a huge role in the ETO, and France and the rest of Europe would probably be speaking German or Russian if it weren't for the US. But again, that's my opinion...

The D.520 was a good aircraft for its time - albeit a rather short life in terms of quality of performance. The reason was simple - France was taken out of the fight very early in the conflict.

What if the Arsenal VG.33 had achieved operational status? It was easily on par with the 109 and Spitfire. The problem wasn't with the quality of the aircraft they were building and designing, the problem was with the manufacture and production of those aircraft.

The French were notoriously unwilling to believe that the Germans would be capable of occupying France, especially in 1940 when France had a large, numerically superior military force. While most of their equipment was comparable to that of the Axis, the numbers, lack of training and doctrine, and overall poor morale of her armed services was what allowed Germany to run roughshod over France in a matter of weeks.

Is the D.520 filling a hole in the existing planeset? No, not from a performance standpoint. From a historical view, yes, it should be there....but so should the Bloch MB.152, the Moraine Saulnier Ms.406,  Breguet 690 series, Potez 630 series, etc. etc. What about the Curtiss Hawk 75s flown by the Vichy? Far more numerous than the D.520 or Ms.406, more than 400 being sent before occupation.

We can ask for, and receive, every single plane to achieve operational status in WW2, and someone will still want something obscure. Adding new aircraft isn't the answer to our problems - improving the quality of gameplay with entirely new features is what's going to make the difference, artillery, SAR, new targets, terrains, etc . Eventually, the structure of AH2 won't be able to support all the the things we want to do, and we'll be forced to move to AH3, and this argument will most likely start all over again with "We need a Spitfire!"

[PJ_Godzilla]

We can ask for, and receive, every single plane to achieve operational status in WW2, and someone will still want something obscure. Adding new aircraft isn't the answer to our problems - improving the quality of gameplay with entirely new features is what's going to make the difference, artillery, SAR, new targets, terrains, etc . Eventually, the structure of AH2 won't be able to support all the the things we want to do, and we'll be forced to move to AH3, and this argument will most likely start all over again with "We need a Spitfire!"

I'd like to see the addition of tiered ground defenses around the airbases - layered direct fire and indirect fire defenses. We have no artillery but flak, at this point. Submarines and surface battle groups would be cool, as well.

And that's important since the D-520 is likely to be taxiied from base capture to base capture, given its uberness and the relevance of my point to this thread. It would also likely be a highly potent surface combatant threat, given , uuuuh, that a De520 looks sort of like a contemporary Supermarine product, well-known for Schneider cup racing. (now I know how Michael Moore does it - it's like 6 degrees of separation by means of which you can connect anything - even two things completely and totally unrelated).

-not a highjacker, nothing to see here, PJL

[321BAR]

I believe he was speaking metaphorically. Obviously, the US played a huge role in the ETO, and France and the rest of Europe would probably be speaking German or Russian if it weren't for the US. But again, that's my opinion...

The D.520 was a good aircraft for its time - albeit a rather short life in terms of quality of performance. The reason was simple - France was taken out of the fight very early in the conflict.

What if the Arsenal VG.33 had achieved operational status? It was easily on par with the 109 and Spitfire. The problem wasn't with the quality of the aircraft they were building and designing, the problem was with the manufacture and production of those aircraft.

The French were notoriously unwilling to believe that the Germans would be capable of occupying France, especially in 1940 when France had a large, numerically superior military force. While most of their equipment was comparable to that of the Axis, the numbers, lack of training and doctrine, and overall poor morale of her armed services was what allowed Germany to run roughshod over France in a matter of weeks.

Is the D.520 filling a hole in the existing planeset? No, not from a performance standpoint. From a historical view, yes, it should be there....but so should the Bloch MB.152, the Moraine Saulnier Ms.406,  Breguet 690 series, Potez 630 series, etc. etc. What about the Curtiss Hawk 75s flown by the Vichy? Far more numerous than the D.520 or Ms.406, more than 400 being sent before occupation.

We can ask for, and receive, every single plane to achieve operational status in WW2, and someone will still want something obscure. Adding new aircraft isn't the answer to our problems - improving the quality of gameplay with entirely new features is what's going to make the difference, artillery, SAR, new targets, terrains, etc . Eventually, the structure of AH2 won't be able to support all the the things we want to do, and we'll be forced to move to AH3, and this argument will most likely start all over again with "We need a Spitfire!"

yes the Americans played an extremely large role in the ETO but the Russians had already halted the German forces on the Eastern Front and was pushing the front back before any American stepped foot inside France... yes we sped the war up dramatically but the war most likely would have been won or at least settled by the British and Russians and Free French with out us in Europe. The Battle of France though was a lightning quick campaign by WWII standards though and the French planes were already outdated by the time Operation Torch was underway. Actually some would argue that they were outdated by the time France had surrendered...
    And how would AHII be better with submarines godzilla? for this type of game to work with subs we would need manymanymanymanymany.... ahh you get the idea... we'd need many more objects and more physics and parameters to accompany the subs. Rarely were subs destroying war vessels like destroyers and cruisers and CVs. they went after shipping and the DDEs mainly.