Author Topic: Pacific  (Read 5688 times)

Offline bozon

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2010, 04:00:16 AM »
I think their superiors had told them that very nasty things would happen to them if they would be captured alive.
Well they were toying with him shooting around him and trying to just wound him. There were a few disappointed marines when he was finally put out of his misery.

The problem with the pacific theater is that Japanese are usually portrayed as crazy natives or noble savages (to replace the American Indians?) while Nazis are the ultimate evil. A fight against evil creates more drama and suspense than a safari trip to the far east. At least this is how it comes out in Hollywood.
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Offline TwinEng

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2010, 04:55:04 AM »
Well, I am hoping that the following episodes get better.   They really have selected some outstanding men to highlight.

This coming Sunday's episode should probably cover the battle where Sgt John Basilone wins his Medal of Honor.   It is quite a story.   During a crucial Japanese assault, he keeps not only his own Browning 1917A1 water cooled machine gun in operation, but also a second machine gun, after its crew is killed.   He rallies men to keep both guns firing, and then heroically dodges enemy fire to retrieve more ammo, so that both guns can be kept firing.   The gunfire from the two Brownings was credited with turning the tide of the battle, as they literally mowed down wave after wave of Japanese making Banzai charges at their position.

Here is a photo of the Browning model 1917A1 water cooled machine gun, caliber .30-06:




It should be quite a battle to see.  After it was over, the Marines found an amazing 3,000 dead Japanese bodies at the scene.  Basilone was one of only 3 men left in his unit who was not killed or wounded in the horrific slaughter.

Basilone was hailed as a war hero after winning the Medal of Honor.  He was sent back to the states to go on a big tour raising US war bonds.  For publicizing this tour, the government created this poster depicting him in action at Guadalcanal:




The Marines did not want to send him back into combat.   Life magazine had done an article on him, and he had been covered extensively by Fox Movietone news.   All of this press had turned him into a national celebrity.   After his excellent work promoting the sale of war bonds, Basilone was offered a commission as a Lieutenant.   However, he refused, as it required him to attend officers school, and thus not be able to return to the war.   The Marine Corps then offered him a job as a gunnery trainer, to teach soldiers machine gun gunnery skills.   They did not want to risk sending him back into combat.   They did not want such a lionized hero to die.  Again, though, Basilone refused, and again requested a combat transfer back to the fighting in the Pacific.

The Marine Corps finally relented, and he landed on Iwo Jima with the 5th Marine Division.   Amazingly, his exploits at Iwo Jima probably exceeded his efforts at Guadalcanal.   Singlehandedly, he took out a large Japanese concrete blockhouse that had been pouring machine gun and artillery fire into the Marines.   Using grenades and demolition charges, he wiped out the entire blockhouse garrison all on his own, after sneaking up on the position.   Later in the battle, he ran out into a minefield to rescue a Sherman tank that was stuck inside the field.   Despite heavy enemy fire all around him, he personally guided the tank to safety, navigating it around the land mines, and thus saving its crew.

Because he had already won the Medal of Honor at Guadalcanal, Basilone was given the Navy's highest medal, the Navy Cross, for his exploits at Iwo Jima.   He remains the only Marine in the entire history of the Corps, to win both of these high awards.

Rest in peace John Basilone.   A greater American hero than him probably does not exist.



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« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 05:00:17 AM by TwinEng »

Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2010, 08:50:48 AM »
I saw it as he lost his mind seeing all his mates and countrymen lying in the gutter dead with various bodyparts blown off. I also saw it that he rather died standing up then being captured and tortured to death by the evil and unhuman Americans. I think their superiors had told them that very nasty things would happen to them if they would be captured alive.

He simply saw no way out.

Disagree with everything save what IJA soldiers were told about US Marines.

(ate babies, no prisoners, etc, etc).

Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2010, 08:55:01 AM »
This coming Sunday's episode should probably cover the battle where Sgt John Basilone wins his Medal of Honor.  

I believe that to be the case.  First episode ended with him marching towards the front with Chesty et al with a 1917 on his back, IIRC.

Interesting picture... wonder how badly he is burning his hand.  ;)

Offline DREDger

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2010, 11:14:29 AM »
Keep in mind it is a movie, so it is just speculation on what the director wants you to believe about that Japanese soldier who gets shot up.

I real life, it did not happen like that according to the author of the book Robert Leckie (The character who shoots the soldier with the pistol).

What happens is at the end of the battle, some of the Japanese are trying to escape along the river and get shot down.   One of them is really fat and was carrying food supplies and couldn't get away before getting shot.

Robert Leckie then swims across the river to get souveniers off the dead guy, but finds nothing of value and swims back. 

The Marines continue to hold their position on the river for a couple of days and the corpses begin to rot and bloat. Eventually crocs swim up up and start eating the Japanese corpses, and Marines cheer at the spectical, and also because the crocs will dispose of the stink by eating it  (so the Marines agree not to shoot the crocs)

Offline Grayeagle

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2010, 11:31:31 AM »
It was very strange watching that first episode.

My Uncle was in the 1st Marines, on the 'Canal.
He probably knew some of those guys.

He told me long ago ..
'that first night, we dug our holes deep .. guys in the next foxhole
whispered 'keep a cool stool' ..it felt like camping in the woods back home, but we knew a fight was coming'

(home was Portland Oregon, we useda go up to his cabin on Mt. Hood on vacation now an then, fun times)

He also watched a lone white P-38 come up behind two zekes and smoke 'em both ..high over the beach,
..zeke's never saw the 38, said it was just two short bursts, one into each, over in seconds.. and the 38 just
motored on out of site, obviously looking for more.

He was wounded by friendly fire, the CO sent him stateside, telling him to enjoy his time there before the Japs came,
.. everyone knew the US was going to be invaded.

Ya .. 1942 was rough.

Gai-Jin .. we were not human to the Japs.
They butchered people that surrendered, among other things.
.. it was common to find a Gai-Jin tied to a tree, his genitals in his mouth, and gutted like a fish.
..all done  while  he was alive.

'Culture' ?? .. rationalizing bestiality.
 
If you had been there, seeing someone you knew tied to a tree and such,
.. being 18 with a gun with all that testosterone flowing, with yer buds ..
..well.

-GE aka Frank
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Offline Eagler

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2010, 12:04:22 PM »
doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers

Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films
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Offline DREDger

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2010, 12:22:28 PM »
doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers

Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films

How can you realistically draw that conclusion after only one episode? 

And no-one is forcing you to watch Hanks' movies.  I suppose when you make a movie you can decide what to include or not include as well.

Offline Stoney

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2010, 02:14:09 PM »
doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers

Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films

What political view was he espousing in that episode?  If you think the 'Canal episode is rough, just wait until you see how brutal things are later on.
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Offline TwinEng

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2010, 05:51:20 PM »
I believe that to be the case.  First episode ended with him marching towards the front with Chesty et al with a 1917 on his back, IIRC.

Interesting picture... wonder how badly he is burning his hand.  ;)


Well, remember that the M1917A1 was water cooled.   That gave it a big edge in battle over air cooled machine guns, which typically had to have their barrels changed during combat due to overheating.   In fact, if any other machine gun had been used in that battle, the Marines could have easily been overrun.   But because they had these two M1917A1 water cooled machine guns operating, they were able to lay down a deadly continuous fire into the oncoming Japanese ranks.   The only thing that the Marines had to do was to keep feeding them ammo.   A pause in the fighting to change barrels would have no doubt been disastrous in this battle.

Many Americans don't realize what a patriot John Browning was.   For he donated almost all of his work for the US military in developing so many fantastic machine guns for them.   The government had unfortunately been lax about adopting the M1917 at first.   But once war was declared in April of 1917, Browning himself gave a personal demonstration of the gun to leaders of Congress and the US military a few weeks later, in a desperate effort to get it approved for production ASAP.   During this demonstration, Browning personally fired over 40,000 rounds from the gun, without a single malfunction of any kind.

Witnesses were totally blown away by this demonstration.   Some key people who were not present were even skeptical of the results, as the reliability had been so extraordinary.  Some even openly wondered if the gun's performance that day had not been a fluke.  Browning was so dismayed by this skepticism, that he offered a second test a couple of weeks later, to prove it had not been a fluke.   This time, all 5 generals responsible for oversight were present.   In this test, to illustrate how the gun was capable of such extremely sustained fire, Browning fired the M1917 continually for a full 48 minutes, only pausing briefly at times to insert new belts of ammo. 

Needless to say, the generals were all impressed, and they immediately approved the M1917 for adoption by the US Army.  It was this amazing ability to constantly fire for such long sustained periods, that allowed these two 1917A1's to play such a major role in this battle on Guadalcanal that will be featured in this coming Sunday's episode of "The Pacific".  The Japanese must have thought that these guns just could not continue to fire so long, without suffering any kind of malfunction.   But the two guns did, and history was made.

So in an indirect, but very crucial way, John Moses Browning was also a hero that day.   For his genius had created a machine gun so very tough and reliable, that it ended up performing perfectly in actual combat, just like it had done in Browning's hands during the evaluation tests.

The Japanese had nothing like the M1917A1 in their arsenal.   All of their machine guns, both light and heavy, had bare barrels just cooled by the air.  Their light machine guns were also limited to using 30 round magazines.   The older Model 11 light machine gun was know for having serious reliability problems, and often malfunctioned as well.   While the later Model 96 that replaced it was much more reliable, it was still limited greatly in its firepower by its air cooled barrel and use of 30 round magazines.

Japan's heavy machine guns were also quite limited, compared to the M1917A1.   Besides being air cooled, the Type 92 heavy machine had a slow rate of fire ( only 200 rounds a minute, compared to 600 rounds per minute of the A1917A1 )    This limitation was mainly due to the gun using ammo strips that again only held 30 rounds

In contrast to these Japanese guns, the M1917A1 operated like a lawn mower, literally mowing down the enemy when they made Banzai charges.   The Japanese were forced to change their fighting tactics after Guadalcanal.   For the Banzai charges that had worked so well fighting in Korea and China, proved to be an utter disaster when employed against American positions held by soldiers armed with machine guns designed by John Browning.

Here are two official portraits that were taken of Browning with his beloved M1917.  He was 60 years old when he invented it.   It is too bad that he could not have been given a Medal of Honor too.







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Offline skribetm

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2010, 06:03:32 PM »
- sorry - doubleposted   :headscratch:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 07:16:49 PM by skribetm »

Offline skribetm

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2010, 06:09:05 PM »
Gai-Jin .. we were not human to the Japs.
They butchered people that surrendered, among other things.
.. it was common to find a Gai-Jin tied to a tree, his genitals in his mouth, and gutted like a fish.
..all done  while  he was alive.

'Culture' ?? .. rationalizing bestiality.
 
If you had been there, seeing someone you knew tied to a tree and such,
.. being 18 with a gun with all that testosterone flowing, with yer buds ..
..well.

-GE aka Frank


we have to keep things in perspective. the animosity/hatred, fear and war crimes were on both sides, not just the japanese.
surrendering, defenseless imperial army soldiers were at times shot or flamed with napalm. navy fighters also strafed surviving japanese sailors that were on rafts.
and these were even put down as written orders by high ranking u.s. officers.

the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.

Offline Maniac

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2010, 06:19:30 PM »
WoW.

Great post man, brings light to alot of stuff imo.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2010, 06:55:41 PM »
the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.

Though, not if you include the Russian front. It would be hard to say that one was more brutal than the other, but the difference in scale is staggering.
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Offline fudgums

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2010, 06:58:22 PM »


the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.

War is brutal
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