The C Hog...Why Was It Not Perked?

[SOB]

   

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Mebbe true Fatty, but every time somebody brings up chog inaccuracy even with actual documented evidence the same thing happens- they all start right up, name-calling, whiner this whiner that. As if they know deep down that chog is wrong and are afraid to see it fixed and, God no!, maybe try to kill in another less cheap plane.

I've seen plane inaccuracies discussed here rationally in the past, and there's no reason they can't be.  However, these threads where the rational discussion takes place usually start out at the beginning with a rational, well thought out post.  The ones that end in toejam usually start there.

   

Plus it really bothers me that a plane with only 200 units made- a painfully insignificant variant of a major and succesful fighter completly kills nearly all use of the Dhog, and completly dominates AH Ma in K/D rate and usage, plus its been known for 3months now that its 600lbs too light and hasnt been fixed.

Doesn't bother me how many were made in WWII, but you've certainly got a right to your opinion.  My memory could be failing me here, but didn't Pyro say that the Chog weight problem was on the fix list in the same thread that he acknowledged the problem existed?

   

It just seems to me that the chog crowd whine every time somebody chalenges it, its like they are afraid of loosing its inaccurate edge. They just wannna supress any dissent so they do the easiest thing, ridicule dissenters in hope that the humor of it all will bury the message.

After hearing for the millionth time that the only reason you're able to kill anyone is because you fly a "DweebRide", you can become a little defensive.  Just wait a little while...after you reach the 2-mil mark, you stop caring and it all becomes pretty funny again.


SOB


[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Vermillion]

Frenchy said:
 

can outurn most of the plane set

That is total crap, and shows you haven't flown the La7.

The La7 has approximately the same sustained turn rates as the Yak-9U and the P-51D. Do either of those two planes outturn most of the rest of the planeset?

No, and neither does the La7.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Zigrat]

the la7 outturns most of the planeset, it outturns

all 109s

all 190s

p51d

p47

p38

typhoon

thats more than half

if the ta152 is perked because its uber at high alt, then the la7 is surely the low alt uber plane.

[AKDejaVu]

I've been tracking fighter vs fighter kills daily this tour.  I was very interested in seeing what affect the new planes would have on the arena.

Prior to 1.06, the CHog was pretty much dominating in usage and tied with the A5 in K/D.  That immediately changed with the introduction of 1.06.  The CHog K/D dropped nearly 20% and usage was well below that of the Dora and La-7.

The Dora led in K/D over the F4u-1C over that period... by quite a bit.  The CHog is finally starting to catch back up as people return to their favorite rides.

The thing is, the K/D of the Dora has been going down as the casual fliers stop using it.  Now its just the dedicated... and its not doing as well.  So much for the uber LW pilots inflating the stats theory.

The Dora seems to have drawn many of the G10 pilots from the rankings, as its usage plummeted.  The CHog and N1K2 pilots seem to be more likely to migrate to the La-7, though I get the feeling that the lack of 4 cannons may eventually drive a large portion of the pilots back to their original planes.

After going over stats, I started to think about when I would see the most Chogs... and when they would kill me the most.  As a rule, it was either near their CV when they had a flak cover to keep me low and cons were everywhere, or it was when I was bounced.  I just can't remember an instance where I met an F4u-1C h2h and lost.  Not a single time.  I have more problems killing A5s and P-47s 1:1 than I have killing the chog.  I've also found most DHog pilots to be more challenging too.

The inclusion of ultra-lethal weapons like the hispano leads to bad habbits.  The desire to just get a few rounds in the direction of the target makes most chog pilots easy to manipulate.  I can't help but think "oh, goodie!" when I se an F4u pilot that would rather press a HO than jokey for position.

Right now, the CHog is not being used as much as the Spit IX.  It does, however, have more kills.  Over 35% of its kills are against ground vehicles or bombers.  Vs fighters it is doing nothing overly dramatic.

I've noticed alot of F4u-1C base attacks.  The ordinance load plus the destructive power of the cannons make it an ideal ground assault plane.  A correctly planned assault by an experienced squad can result in some 40 vulch kills.  The hangars only need to come down if suppression is incapable of keeping fighters/bombers from spawning.  Many people are using this to inflat CHog numbers.

I do get a laugh out of one pilot in particular.  He had 6 kills at a field that was heavily suppressed by some 6 planes.  The only thing up was a VH and only 1 bish was spawning there.. but he was pretty drunk and not getting many kills.  The pilot decided to land at an enemy base and exit.  I shot him before he could.  You should have heard the screaming.

AKDejaVu

[Torgo]

Still amazes me that people want to pick out one of the most non-descript and ordinary aircraft in the planeset in terms of kill stats...the La-7..and perk it.

I hear the response that people aren't "flying it correctly" and that's why it doesn't have that many kills and a relatively poor K/D.

Well, perk it WHEN and IF everyone learns to "fly it correctly" and it's wildly popular and getting most of the arena kills and an ungodly K/D. Don't perk it because it's deadly and unstoppable in the hands of someone who knows how to use it..that's true of almost EVERY arena plane.

Again, I fail to see why anecdotal opinions of a given aircraft are somehow seen as far more important than hard, cold, arena kill and K/D numbers.

[Toad]

To answer the question posed by the thread title:

Simply because the HTC guys need a good laugh now and then to keep their positive outlook on life.

By not perking the -1C, they have guaranteed that they will have a continuing supply of threads like this to bring a smile to their face after a long day programming.    

   

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Plus it really bothers me that a plane with only 200 units made- a painfully insignificant variant of a major and succesful fighter..

From no less an authority than the FW Gawd-head himself, Ram:

"% of Chog production compared with the total F4U1 production run: 1.8% rougly.

% of D9 production compared with the total Fw190 run: 3.5%"


Almost identically "painfully insignificant" in the overall big picture.

   

Oops, sorry...how could I even begin to compare ~ 2% with ~ 4%? My mistake.    


One more chorus and then the bar closes, gents:


"Perk 'em all!

Perk 'em all!

The large and the fast and the small.

Perk all the Nikkis and C-Hogs in blue,

Perk anything that can shoot back at you!

`cause they're asking to just perk 'em all

As back to their Gruppen they crawl,

There'll be constant crying

as long as they're dying,

So cheer up, my lads,

Perk 'em all!

Nobody knows if the FM's are true,

So cheer up, my lads,

Perk 'em all!"

   

(With apologies to a great old song. )


------------------
Toad

Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy flies. It's a game.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-28-2001).]

[R4M]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
  From no less an authority than the FW Gawd-head himself, Ram:

Heya, MR. Class  

Maybe you should quote all that post (yes, including that I'm taking in account the 20000 figure for Fw190 production, wich is questioned by most, and that I'm including in the number the dedicated ground attack Fw190s, too. The final % of Dora production, according to the numbers most people say are right of the total 190 numbers (less than 17000) and that way more of 5000 of those were F and G versions; then the total production, I say, of the dora,would be some 7%.

Oh, BTW, F4U1-C force was way WAY less than 1% of the total # of allied fighter planes in service in the PACIFIC only. If we include Europe, even when by August 1945 war in Europe was over, the % is even lesser.

Would you like me to take a look at wich was the total percentage of Fw190D9s in the LW when the war finished in Europe?. Believe me, there were not many 190A1-A7s around for that time...Just some A8s and D9s. I would think that quite way more than 1%, right?

In short: the CHog was a plane that added almost nothing to the allied fighter force, nor in performance, nor in numbers. I call that a WORTHLESS, UNINPORTANT PLANE for the US war effort.

The Dora was a numerically significant, and distinctly brilliant plane, wich provided the LW with a very capable plane, distinctly better than any other fighter they had. I call that an IMPORTANT PLANE for the German war effort.

If you have a Chog, I dont see why dont we have a Fw190A8/R3 with MK103 guns.

BTW, mr Perfect, last time I checked, the Chog had 15500 kills on the MA and the D9 had 7400 or so. The Spitfire is more used on the MA than the Nik(by a hair), Dora, P51 and La7.


And now...your point is?.

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Vermillion]

Zigrat wrote:

 

the la7 outturns most of the planeset, it outturns all 109s, all 190s, P51d, p47, p38, typhoon, thats more than half

]

Prove it. Because I'm calling roadkill.

When I did the sustained turn tests for the Yak-9U due to the same type of preposterous claims, this wasn't true.  And incidentally the La7 should be the same as for the Yak-9U within 0.5 seconds. And the Yak-9U and the P-51D were turning in similar times.

If your right and its turning faster, then its a bug that needs fixed. And I'll be the first and loudest voice claiming it needs to be fixed.

But I have a sneaky suspicion that your claim is your "impression" or "feeling" rather than anything based in fact.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Karnak]

The reason a non-perk aircraft MAY get perked is not because of how good it is, but rather because it is distorting the perk system and significantly diminishing the variety of aircraft in the MA.

Because of this only famous aircraft, like the F4U, Mustang, Spitfire, Fw190 and B-29 or clearly superlative aircraft like the Tempest, Ar234, Meteor MkIII and Me262.

Because of this things like the La7 will never be perked but thinks like the Spitfire MkXIV will be even though they are evenly matched fighters, IMO.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[Torgo]

I personally would bet large amounts of money that an unperked Spit XIV reaches a higer % of total arena kills than the Chog ever did.

I don't think the LA-7 and the Spit XIV would be remotely close to each other in arena effectiveness.

BTW, isn't the Spit the uberplane of Air Warrior or something (haven't played AW since it was on GEnie in the early 90s.) Possible explanation for the spike in Spit IX kills this tour..all the AW types coming in new.

[AKDejaVu]

 

BTW, isn't the Spit the uberplane of Air Warrior or something (haven't played AW since it was on GEnie in the early 90s.) Possible explanation for the spike in Spit IX kills this tour..all the AW types coming in new.

I think you must be right with this.  I used to be able to pick an AW transplant out of the crowd because he'd say "There is no way that plane could turn with a Spit IX!"

Still cracks me up thinking about it

AKDejaVu

[Torgo]

Btw, the LA-7 and the Spit IX have killed each other EXACTLY the same number of times this tour.

This is the same Spit IX constantly bemoaned as a helpless 1942 AC by the RAF-wobbles :-)

Somehow  I doubt the Spit XIV would be an even match for the La-7.

[Karnak]

Torgo,
Dang it, we're RAFanatics!!!!

Don't confuse us with the Luftwabbles.

 

The Spitfire F.MkIX that we have has only one advantage over the La7, turning.  If they have killed each other evenly it is only due to people being unfamiliar with the new La7.  Jeebus, the La7 is 40-50mph faster on the deck.  The Spit IX is helpless against any competently flown La7.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[Toad]

Bzzzzzzzzzzzt! Whzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! Zeeeeeeeeeee!

Help! Somebody throw some water on this reel! She's overheating! Cap'n! Back her down! Back her down! I'm running out of line!

Too easy. Way too easy.  

 http://www.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_german.htm#fighter


Focke-Wulf FW 190 (20,087 all variants)
     
 http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/gma.htm

Fighter and Ground Attack FW Variants Total 20,010.

But I'm sure you have the exact numbers and can prove these wrong.  

However, if you are going to set the above "all new" standards for which aircraft should be included in the planeset I eagerly await the publishing of "Ram's Rules".  

So Fighter variants are to be separated from Ground Attack variants?  (What's the minimum % threshold for inclusion in the planeset in these individual categories, btw? How do you handle an aircraft that was both a capable fighter AND a good ground attack aircraft within a single variant? Have you got that far in your new rule set?)

And we will also use % of total national aircraft production divided by theater of war now?

Wait, maybe we're just using % in National Air Force total at war's end? (Does this mean no early war planes then?)

Guess I'll just have to wait until you publish.  

I'm sure there are some Allied Opportunists that will love the new brackets though...  

Total kills? Think I'll just wait for Deja's comprehensive and honest breakdown of fighter v fighter kills, thanks.

"Perk 'em all, Perk 'em all........

 

[Torgo]

I suspect the LA-7 stats never really change much.

This will be an interesting test of Rip's theory on the CHog; that it isn't that great, but all kinds of people fly it because they see all the whining about it on the BBS.

The La-7 is a far better example of a mediocre AC that people are whining about being uber all over the place, including the open channel in main.

If Rip's theory holds, we should se usage of the La-7 steadily rise.