The great TankBuster...the Spit?

[MANDOBLE]

Even Mk103 (30mm german gun) was ineffective against tanks. And this was a much better gun than Hispano, with much heavier proyectile and faster muzzle vel.

IMO, in the best case, the hispano armed planes should be able to damage some parts of the tank, like machineguns, tracks or killing the commander (if you are in external view or handling the machineguns), even with lucky shots they should be able to damage the engine, but never to KILL a panzer.
Same level of damage chance should be achieved by any other cannon armed plane.

[Replicant]

I thought the Spitfire VIII replaced the Hurricane IIC and IID in the anti-tank role in Africa in WW2?  Did the Spit VIII have the C version with optional 4x20mm?  Just curious, almost all RAF squadrons replaced the Hurricane with either Spitfire VIII, IX or P47-25 during 1943-1944.  Perhaps they did this for bomb load reasons?

Regards

Nexx



[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 03-27-2001).]

[funked]

There's something wrong with the modeling of the ground vehicle vulnerability.  

20 mm will Explode the Panzer.  Even 150 rounds of .50 cal to the frontal armor will Kill the Panzer.

But 20 mm or .50 cal in the top of the Ostwind turret... does Nothing.

And sometimes more than ten 75 mm AP direct hits to the Panzer or Ostwind... does Nothing.

Like Effdub, I kill tanks in the Spitfire, with bombs.  Killing with cannons is possible, but it takes about a full magazine to kill one, even with nearly 100% hit rate.  

And as Grunherz points out, the MG 34 is modelled like a GE Minigun, so strafing them is risky business.  5 light MG hits can (LOL) take off your wing.

Anyways let's get the discussion moved towards the armor/vulnerability model, because that's the real problem.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-27-2001).]

[Soda]

It's unusual to get a MG34 kill from the panzer unless the guy plays chicken and gets within D150 of you on his run.  It's pretty easy to beat the Panzer gun anyway, come in high or switch side on him so he can't traverse it all the way around fast enough.  I bet 1/2 those panzer kills of fighters are from augers closeby.

I've taken on a number of tanks in a Spit, it takes a whole lot of 20mm to usually get any sort of kill.  I usually consider any run like that to be pretty much desperate measures.  Against an Ostie it's basically suicide.

I though this had all been discussed so many times before, the numbers pointing to the fact that the 20mm could kill a Panzer from the top/rear with AP rounds.  The fact that it can be killed from almost every angle (and more effectively from the front it seems) is a problem with the armour modelling on GV's.

-Soda

[flakbait]

Alrighty Funked. Armor specs of the Panzer IV H:

Hull front: 80mm (3.2 in) @ 80º
Hull sides: 30mm (1.2 in) @ 90º
Hull rear: 20mm (0.8 in) @ 78º
Turret front: 50mm (2 in) @ 79º
Turret sides: 30mm (1.2 in) @ 64º
Turret rear: 30mm (1.2 in) @ 74º
Turret roof: 10mm (0.4 in) @ 74º

Now most of the ballistics nuts say a Hispano will blow through 10mm of armor plate. They're right it will, but will it blow through at an oblique angle? In order for a bullet to grip the target face at oblique angles it has to be given a very sharp edge. So you end up firing a wadcutter at a target; why? Because only the sharp edge (90º angle change) at the nose of the bullet will grip an odd-angled surface. Anyone with a pistol can check this and confirm it.

Here's what you do. Get an old car door and shoot at it from any angle 45º or less. Meaning eventually you'll be shooting at the car door looking nearly down its length. At hard angles, anything over 45º, the bullet should not only grip but go through. However, at very shallow angles (like a fighter coming in low) the bullet will skid OFF the target. Why does it do this? Because the nose of the bullet is rounded; it doesn't have a sharp enough angle on the nose to grip the target. Gun nut Jim Cirillo proved this in the 1993 issue of the Guns & Ammo Annual.

Now look at a Hispano round. It's got a nice ballistic shape, like a rifle bullet. Which means it can't penetrate crap at oblique angles. Any rifle bullet is ballistically shaped to give the longest range performance possible. Unfortunately this has the DISadvantage of not being able to penetrate any hard target at weird angles. Why? it's got a real smooth taper to the nose.

I'm gonna track down the article if I can and post a link.


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[Dinger]

Great flakbait, now we'll get them whining about the 151/20mm minengeschoss

[Karnak]

Like Effdub and Funked said, when I kill tanks with a Spitfire, I use bombs.  I have killed a single Ostwind by straffing it with my MkVb this tour.

Spitfires on ground attack need to use bombs.

Do Dinger's stats say how many of those kills were with bombs?  No, I didn't think so.

Sounds like you guys are trying to exagerate a problem by distorting what your numbers mean.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-27-2001).]

[Raubvogel]

Something else that is wrong but related...why does the MG34 on the PzIV only swivel like 180 degrees?

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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[flakbait]

 

AP-T Hispano round from Verm's PDF file. With this rounded nose it wouldn't penetrate at odd angles. Against a tank, with all the lumps and bumps, it would do some damage. But you can almost count on no harm to the crew. You can see .50 caliber ammo skipping off things in WW2 gun cam footage. It skipped because it uses a nose similar to the Hispano. I've got a complete .50 cal round hanging on my wall, and right next to it is a .44 magnum hollowpoint. The .44 magnum's bullet design has a better chance of penetrating anything than the .50's design. Simply because it has sharp edges around the rim of the bullet.


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[Raubvogel]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:

Sounds like you guys are trying to exagerate a problem by distorting what your numbers mean.

The fact remains that it is a problem. No plane with 2 Hispanos should be able to EXPLODE a Panzer. I understand that you like the Spitfire and everything, but something is wrong here.



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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Raubvogel]

 

Originally posted by funked:

Anyways let's get the discussion moved towards the armor/vulnerability model, because that's the real problem.

If this were the case, you could also kill a Panzer with Mausers, which is impossible no matter how many rounds you fire at it. See thread about AP for Mausers I punted.


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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Tony Williams]

Hate to discourage the bomber boys, but while a 250 lb or 500 lb would finish any Panzer with a direct hit, and disable one from a short distance, accuracy in RL was terrible - the CEP was about twice as bad as the rockets (which only scored around 1 hit in 200 against tanks).

The Stukas were much more accurate because they used a vertical dive (even so, it took a real expert plus a lot of luck to hit a tank) but in the shallow-diving RAF/USAF fighter-bomber attacks a bomb was just an area weapon.

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

[Karnak]

 

Originally posted by Raubvogel:
The fact remains that it is a problem. No plane with 2 Hispanos should be able to EXPLODE a Panzer. I understand that you like the Spitfire and everything, but something is wrong here.

Again you distort the issue.  All it means when it EXPLODES is that the driver was killed.  Not that the Hispano rounds literally tore the tank apart.  It could have been a single round that penetrated and did the driver in.  I don't think a short burst of 50 cal fire would cause a Lanc to explode, but it has happened to me because I hit the PILOT.

Yes, the Hispano cannons do pierce tank armor too effectively as things stand now.  How do you know that the problem lies with the Hispano modeling and not the tank armor model?  I happen to think that the tank armor is not modeled as being hard enough.

Tony,
I actually miss with most of my bombs, but I do have a far, FAR better hit rate than 1 in 400.  Keep in mind that because of the limitations of computer modeling of these things, as well as the ammount of practice we get at no risk to ourselves, we are far more accurate than WWII pilots were.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[GRUNHERZ]

Karnak you are trying to distort the issue and move it away from examining the Hispano cannons unusual AT performance.

Dont try to be noble and deny it, you fly the spit and its armed with Hispano and you dont want it getting re-examined. Thats the simple truth of the matter-  thats why you and whovever else always say its the tank thats badly modeled, deflecting the issue away from Hispanos. Well if the tank was badly modeled then certainly the Nikiss or FW190's guns could take advantage of this bug and kill panzers. We all know you cant kill a tank under any circumstance with Mausers and I personally never killed one with a Niki.

Face it guys Hispano is different than the other cannos in AH, far beyond its slight RL perfomance advantage would show.  

Its just another thing that needs fixing sooner or later like any other adjustments that were made in AH before.

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 03-27-2001).]

[Karnak]

GRUNHERZ,
I beg to differ.  I don't use my Spit's cannons against ground targets unless I have no other option.  I have also used Zero's, Niki's and 109's cannons against tanks because that is all that I had.

Is it possible that the armor value on tanks is high enough to keep the lower damage rated guns out, but not high enough to keep the Hispano's out?  I think that is not only possible, but likely.

I have not found Hispanos to be staggeringly better at air-to-air than other 20mm cannons.

I would like the ability to select what kind of ammo my guns are loaded with.

I'm not being noble, I'm stating how I see it.  I accused Raubvogel of distorting the issue because he insists on using inflammatory language to sensationalize his points.  When you debate, you should keep the langage as level as possible.  Debates are about reason, not emotion.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak