The great TankBuster...the Spit?

[Sturm]

This coming from a guy who wants a Mk XIV in here  ?  J/K anyway something has to be looked at, whether it be the hispano or the MG 151.  Try ground attacking a osty with a D-9 from vertical see how many rounds it takes to kill it compared with the hispano.  Open topped vehicle no less, the MG 151 takes forever to get a kill in.  I grab the tiffie if a tank is near by, simple fact hte hispanos will kill quicker then anything else, cept the yak 9t.

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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[GRUNHERZ]

Like I said, we need to examine Hispano's unusual AT performance, so far we all seem to agree that its a bit overdone vis-a-vis the other cannon.

Now the sole point of disagreement restest wheter this has to do with the tanks or the Hispanos, and this needs looking into.


Actually for a Hispano topic this one has been most reasonable and level-headed.   <S>

[AKDejaVu]

AKDjV has 12 kills and has been killed 1 time in the F4U-1D against the Panzer IV H.
AKDjV has 22 kills and has been killed 14 times in the F4U-1D against the Ostwind.

AKDjV has 11 kills and has been killed 1 time in the Typhoon IB against the Panzer IV H.
AKDjV has 14 kills and has been killed 6 times in the Typhoon IB against the Ostwind.

AKDjV has 22 kills and has been killed 2 times in the Panzer IV H against the Panzer IV H.
AKDjV has 24 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Panzer IV H against the Ostwind.

Some of the Typhoon victories were done with Cannons, but most were with rockets or bombs.  Virtually all of the F4u-1D kills were done with rockets and bombs.

The one place where I've noticed the Hispano to really have an advantage is with the lighter armor vehicles.  It opens up the M3 and M16 with only a few hits.  I've peppered both with .50s before without getting a kill.

I'd say things seem about right.

AKDejaVu

[Raubvogel]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:

I accused Raubvogel of distorting the issue because he insists on using inflammatory language to sensationalize his points.  When you debate, you should keep the langage as level as possible.  Debates are about reason, not emotion.

Inflammatory language? LOL Didn't mean to offend you with my outrageous use of the word explode.

 

Is it possible that the armor value on tanks is high enough to keep the lower damage rated guns out, but not high enough to keep the Hispano's out? I think that is not only possible, but likely.

[/b]

Well that theory is simply not true, because enough 50 cal rounds will also kill a Panzer.

DejaVu, why do you always have to post your stats? Is it really always about you? LOL You crack me up. That's not a dig, you really do crack me up from a professional standpoint...but thats neither here nor there.

Anyways...back to the topic. A Spit with 2 cannons shouldn't be able to pop open Panzers. If someone can provide some data proving that a Hispano round can penetrate the armor of a Panzer at oblique angles and at long ranges that would be helpful. Otherwise, maybe it should be looked at for next version.



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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[gatt]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The one place where I've noticed the Hispano to really have an advantage is with the lighter armor vehicles.  It opens up the M3 and M16 with only a few hits.  I've peppered both with .50s before without getting a kill. I'd say things seem about right.

Actally 2x20mm Hispanos open FlakPanzers (Pzr III chassis) like tin cans as well, with only a few hits. Spitfires V and Seafires are great at it. I did it many times in the past, defending fields. And FP are the problem here. "Things seems right"?  

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-27-2001).]

[funked]

Grunherz, Raub, you guys are missing the point.  

It's clear that the Hispano should have better armor-piercing capability than any of the other 20 mm cannons.  And some of the data presented in this forum indicates that the thinnest armor on the Panzer is slightly below the thickness that the Hispano could penetrate, and slightly above the thickness that the Mauser could penetrate.  So that's why the Hispano can do more against a tank than its little cousin the Mauser.

But the problem is not that the Hispano is better than the Mauser (because it SHOULD BE - Mauser could not defeat even the thinnest armor on the Panzer), the problem is that any 20 mm weapon is exploding Panzers.  That's where the problem is.



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-27-2001).]

[funked]

Grunherz:
 

you fly the spit and its armed with Hispano and you dont want it getting re-examined.  Thats the simple truth of the matter- thats why you and whovever else always say its the tank thats badly modeled, deflecting the issue away from Hispanos.

That's absolutely false.  Moronic generalizations like that are why threads like this degenerate.  

 

Face it guys Hispano is different than the other cannos in AH, far beyond its slight RL perfomance advantage would show.

Sorry, the advantage was not slight historically.  The Hispano has over 70% more kinetic energy at the muzzle than the MG 151/20, and better ballistics mean that that advantage grows rapidly downrange.  I have not crunched the numbers but it wouldn't be too far downrange before the Hispano has twice the kinetic energy of the Mauser.  That's twice the hitting power folks.

[GRUNHERZ]

funked my friend, your just doing it again- you cant even fathom the possibility hispano is wrong in ah. BTW IIRC Mauser AP could do 20mm of penetration according to some numbers posted by Tony Williams here.

[Soda]

Why does the panzer with someone in the copula gun not die easier to smaller calibres?  I mean, if you are using the copula gun isn't the hatch wide open?  Wouldn't a single .50 cal round flying inside do some nasty damage to everything/everyone inside?

Was standard policy to button up and wait out the attack or to actually open up the hatch and try to fire back?  Anyone know?

-Soda

[GRUNHERZ]

plus we all have to rember that any armor penetration test is done firing at a plate fixed at 90degrees to the gun- thus giving it ideal performance every time.

In real combat that is seldom achived.

The PzIVs thinnest armor (roof) is slightly thinner that Hispanos max penetration so If you only hit it in 90 degree dive every time it might penetrate. But from any other angle it would just bounce off and face thicker armor.

In AH u can kill panzers from low angle passes in Hispano planes. PzIV sides are 30mm plus 10mm Schurzen around sides and turret. No 20mm shuold ever go through all that, not eveh AH Hispano.

Thats whats wrong with it, even if u examine Hispanos AP numbers they dont match what we see in everyday AH.

[funked]

 

you cant even fathom the possibility hispano is wrong in ah.

Wrong, I can fathom it just fine.  Somebody needs to come up with some facts to support such an assertion before I will believe it.

PS

Where are these numbers from Tony?  I'm serious, we should get this info together.

[Karnak]

GRUNHERZ, Raubvogel,
Let me ask you this:  If we Spit drivers are so concerned about having the effect of the Hispanos not be examined because we like having super weapons, why are we advocating making tanks more resistant to our shells?

The end result is the same, e.g. 20mm Hispanos can't straffe tanks with much expectation of success.

Ruabvogel,
It wasn't the use of the word "explode".  It was that you emphasized it and in its context it indicated that the Hispano's were blowing the tank to bits, not just killing the crew.

It'd be like me saying that:
"John BRUTALLY beat Max to death."
When what happened was:
"John caught Max in the process of killing John's wife, John lost it and brutally beat Max to death."

The two stories are completely different because of the additional information, yet both could be used to describe the same event.  In the first one, John is a murderer and in the second story, he saved his wife's life from the murderous Max.
When you emphasize one word and then omitt the reason that the thing occurs, it distorts the event and makes it seem like something entirely different occurred.

BTW, you didn't offend me.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-27-2001).]

[Jigster]

Please notice the armor surrounding the crew area (the thickest of course). Also take into account the turrent covers most of the area where side and roof armor is not overlapping.

Oh yes, and there is a rear armor panel, engine, and particularly thick firewall seperating the crew from the rear compartment.

The fact that the Hispano will give a driver wounded, (albeit to no effect) with even the modest bursts, to the Mark IV is absolutely silly.

Damage complexity needs to be reworked.

Versus an armor surface, half the cannon shells should be thrown out anyway  

[Zigrat]

i agree with karnak, the problem is not with hispano but with armor modelling

[Dmitry]

Tony Williams said:
 

In RL, of course, it would have been highly unusual for planes to take out Panzers with 20mm, or for the planes to be shot down by tanks.......

Well my grandfarther was all his life in the army, He started WW II as Lt. and by the end of the war became LtCol of tank forces. When he resighned from service at the age of 54 he was General Major..
He told me a lot of stories about WW II. One of them was the way that tanks could caught fire. If you would spray the rear top part of the tank with critical ammount of rounds (high velocity) it will not penetrate the armor but the hit generated from numerus impacts can start engine fire in tank with 99% resulted as death of the machine... The right angle, critical mass and velocity of the round could do the job...

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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty