Author Topic: The great TankBuster...the Spit?  (Read 1769 times)

Offline Raubvogel

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3882
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« on: March 27, 2001, 12:05:00 AM »
This is a bit ridiculous that the Spit can bust Panzers like a IL-2. If it was really like that they wouldn't have bothered with rockets and bombs, they would have just built a load of Spits with 2 Hispanos and destroyed every Panzer division. Pathetic.

------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

Offline Dinger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1705
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2001, 12:24:00 AM »
 
Quote
The Spitfire Mk IX has 317 kills and has been killed 250 times against the
  Panzer IV H.
The SpitV has 100 kills and has been killed 109 times against the Panzer
  IV H.
  The SeaFire has 29 kills and has been killed 57 times against the Panzer IV
  H.
Hardly peeling 'em open like sardines.  If you look, they're only marginally better than  the US A2G mainstays:
 
Quote
The P-38L has 123 kills and has been killed 160 times against the Panzer
  IV H.
The P-47-D30 has 87 kills and has been killed 92 times against the Panzer
  IV H.
The P-47-D25 has 24 kills and has been killed 28 times against the Panzer
  IV H.
Now compare to the Fighter A/C with a major A2G role and a mess of cannons:
 
Quote
The Typhoon IB has 547 kills and has been killed 267 times against the
  Panzer IV H.
The F4U-1C has 1158 kills and has been killed 514 times against the
  Panzer IV H.
The Yak-9T has 574 kills and has been killed 280 times against the Panzer
  IV H.
The Fw 190F-8 has 73 kills and has been killed 72 times against the
  Panzer IV H.

But who are the real panzer hunters?
 
Quote
The TBM-3 has 115 kills and has been killed 75 times against the Panzer
  IV H.
The B-17G has 128 kills and has been killed 80 times against the Panzer
  IV H.The B-26B has 237 kills and has been killed 133 times against the Panzer
  IV H.
The Ju 88 has 102 kills and has been killed 44 times against the Panzer IV
  H.
The Lancaster III has 118 kills and has been killed 32 times against the
  Panzer IV H.

That's where you should be squeaking.  A heavy bomber proves to be the best tankbuster in the game.  But then again, many of those kills are probly hits on the VH when the tanks spawn.  
In short: two hispanos don't cut it.  You have to make numerous passes on the tank, and each pass increases your likelihood of getting shot down or augering.

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-27-2001).]

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2001, 12:29:00 AM »
 Can we have an Attack button for the Yak 9t please  

------------------
 

[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-27-2001).]

Offline Tony Williams

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
      • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2001, 12:29:00 AM »
Interesting statistics.  What did the Panzers kill the planes with - their main guns?

In RL, of course, it would have been highly unusual for planes to take out Panzers with 20mm, or for the planes to be shot down by tanks.......

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2001, 12:34:00 AM »
I really dont know how to approach this now. If I say its roadkill and not realistic, one of our wonderful self-proclaimed engineer scientist experts will say something like this.

The Hispano Mk2 firing APCDQW... shell could penetrate 20.14386578mm at 311.2yards, at a relative humidty of 10%, and 76.4 farenheit.

 (gee arent I clever theyll say when they type the message)

So therefore he'll proudly proclaim spitfire Mk.Il2s are accurarate in AH. And all his buddies will also post and pat him on the back, prooving just how cool theyall are to uphold the honor of the gracious maid AH.

Well kiddos thats all crap, most if not all armor penetration tests are done with the gun fixed, firing at a non moving steel plate, with the plate facing 90degrees, thus providing the optimum firing position to the gun and giving it optimum performonace.

If the plate or gun are angled you will see that penetration is reduced substantialy due to the rounds deflecting and the relatively greater thickness of armour now that its angled.

So you come in in a fighter fire ur guns and hit it 90degress all the time? Yea right.

Guys its just wrong theres no way to reason around it, in RL armies developed 37mm and 40mm anti-tank guns for use in planes, the 20mm didnt work.
Even against PzII and PzIII and those horrible little Italian M13/40s the British mostly faced in Africa. There were 4 hispano hurricanes there the whole time doin groud attack and the british still had to develop a 40mm AT variant. Im sorry but its just not right how it is in AH, I understand some of u guys love AH so much and hate to see it challenged- but this is simply wrong.

I dont know whate else I can say guys, I honestly and genuinely belive from the historic record that this is incorrect ability for hispano cannons.

Offline Raubvogel

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3882
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2001, 12:36:00 AM »
 
Quote
Hardly peeling 'em open like sardines. If you look, they're only marginally better than the US A2G mainstays:

You just made my point! Even being marginally better than well-known ground attack aircraft such as the P-47 and P-38 is ridiculous. No way should a plane with 2x20mm cannon be able to rip apart Panzers. And I don't know where you're getting this multiple pass thing from, because I've been killed by Spits in 1 pass quite a few times.

In short....it's not right.



------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2001, 12:36:00 AM »
 Mr Williams:

 Sometimes the tanks get a kill if the plane crashes next to it, the tanks also have an AA MG 34.Tank busting is kind of tricky and I imagine a lot of those kills have more to do with pilot earor than to the tankers AA MG.This may also explain why the bombers K/D ratio is as high as it is the are not diving on the tanks merely drooping on parked ones or hitting ones in the VH as they spawn by chance.

------------------
 

[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-27-2001).]

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2001, 12:40:00 AM »
Tony, Panzer IVH in the game AH kills airplanes with the cupola mounted 7.92mm MG34, it can completly rip apart a Typhoon that comes in at low level. The 50cal on the M3 halftrack is also excellent vs B26 bombers doing low alt strafing attacks.

This outrageus performance of MG34, is clearly a gameplay compromise in light of the equally unreal Hispano 20mm AT performance we have in AH. It just keeps on building and building one realism compromise on top of another.

Offline Jigster

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 107
      • http://www.33rd.org
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2001, 02:28:00 AM »
I've repeatedly presented my arguement over armor penetration and will not do so here  

oth 80% of my ATA kills in the Pz IVH this tour have been with the main gun. If people are stupid enough to fly straight at the turrent at 20 feet off the ground, up to 700 yards away and closer, more power to them. I can put the coaxel on them from 1200 to 700, then let loose a single AP round. Realistic? Not really. But neither is their approach.

some of mine have been from zeroing in on the spawn/rearm points from about 4k out and reaping the dorks however (mostly level bombers)  



Offline Effdub

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
      • http://home.netsurf.de/robert.sander/
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2001, 02:34:00 AM »
ermmm... When I attack panzers in a spit I use a bomb.... Do the score stats show how many of those spit vs panzer encounters involve deployment of bombs?  

Effdub

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2001, 03:17:00 AM »
There is really no way a 2 cannoned or even a 4 cannoned plane (spit, tiffie, c hawg etc) could kill a Panzer 4 with the cannons unless they put those rounds in the engine or straight down the open hatch.
The Panzer Mk 4 has got armor from 50mm to 80mm, wich is WAY more then a 20mm round could handle, specially at the angle they shoot (like Grunherz said). If the Hispano had been like this for real they would have used them in their Main Battle tanks, aswell as Anti Tank guns.



------------------
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline gatt

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2441
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2001, 03:28:00 AM »
Hehe Raub, you opened one of the oldest AcesHigh can of worms. Judging from Hispanos lethality against Flak-Panzers and Tanks can you imagine where those damned air-to-air, 800yds, 1 ping kills come from?    

I've still to find a book with description of consistent 2x20mm Hispano tank kills. Even the 4x20mm armed fiters had serious problems to knock down Panzers without bombs (rockets hit ratio against tanks was *very low* in RL, a bad surprise for USAF and RAF commands in Normandy).

Lets enjoy and "game the game" guys. Ok now, where are the cheerleaders in their pantyhoses?    

P.S.: During the last two months of fighting in Tunisia, No.6 Squadron's Hurricanes MkIID (40mm cannons armed) flew 115 sorties claiming hits on 26 Panzer IV (none destroyed) and 37 Panzer III (17 destroyed).

Source: "Aggressors: Tank Buster Vs. Combat Vehicle" by Alex Vanags-Baginskis


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-27-2001).]
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline -tronski-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2825
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2001, 03:55:00 AM »
   

 Tronsky

[This message has been edited by -tronski- (edited 03-27-2001).]
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline MrLars

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1447
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2001, 04:20:00 AM »
Realism be damed!
The ballance 'tween Hispanos and GV's is just right IMO. I am having a blast in my Panzer and , yes, I get killed by Tiffs and C-Hogs alot <never a Spit though> but I still have better than a 1 to 1 ratio against those tank killers. When Spittys use the wrong tactic to attack my Panzer I get a gleam in me eye and start rubbing my hands together ala Flounder <this is gonna be great>. I'm not revealing the way a true tank killin' pilot does it in 1 pass with Hispanos since it will be more fun for me if they have to figure it out from themselves <EG>.
 So, IMO, HT should leave the relationship 'tween Hispanos and GV's as they are.

------------------
Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure

Offline gatt

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2441
The great TankBuster...the Spit?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2001, 04:43:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by MrLars:
Realism be damned!

Exactly what I said .. I guess it is part of the game like the $30 monthly fee, the actual spawn points and the gunners Brownings. I can pay $30 a months, so I can play with those (IMHO) silly things and still enjoy the game. Who knows, the future could bring us Mausers able to kill FP titanium shields and gunners  

"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown