Industrial wind farms

[bj229r]

Are there ANY commercial wind farms that survive sans millions of  tax dollars?

http://hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1698/Wind-Energys-Ghosts.aspx

The voices of Kamaoa cry out their warning as a new batch of colonists, having looted the taxpayers of Spain, Portugal, and Greece, seeks to expand upon their multi-billion-dollar foothold half a world away on the shores of the distant Potomac River. European wind developers are fleeing the EU's expiring wind subsidies, shuttering factories, laying off workers, and leaving billions of Euros of sovereign debt and a continent-wide financial crisis in their wake. But their game is not over. Already they are tapping a new vein of lucre from the taxpayers and ratepayers of the United States.

The Waxman-Markey Cap-and-Trade Bill appears to be politically dead since Republican Scott Brown's paradigm-shattering Massachusetts Senate victory. But alternative proposals being floated by Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) and others still promise billions of dollars to wind developers and commit the United States to generate as much as 20% of its electricity from so-called "renewable" sources.

The ghosts of Kamaoa are not alone in warning us. Five other abandoned wind sites dot the Hawaiian Isles -- but it is in California where the impact of past mandates and subsidies is felt most strongly. Thousands of abandoned wind turbines littered the landscape of wind energy's California "big three" locations -- Altamont Pass, Tehachapi, and San Gorgonio -- considered among the world's best wind sites.

Built in 1985, at the end of the boom, Kamaoa soon suffered from lack of maintenance. In 1994, the site lease was purchased by Redwood City, CA-based Apollo Energy.

Cannibalizing parts from the original 37 turbines, Apollo personnel kept the declining facility going with outdated equipment. But even in a place where wind-shaped trees grow sideways, maintenance issues were overwhelming.  By 2004 Kamaoa accounts began to show up on a Hawaii State Department of Finance list of unclaimed properties. In 2006, transmission was finally cut off by Hawaii Electric Company.

California's wind farms -- then comprising about 80% of the world's wind generation capacity -- ceased to generate much more quickly than Kamaoa.  In the best wind spots on earth, over 14,000 turbines were simply abandoned.  Spinning, post-industrial junk which generates nothing but bird kills.

The City of Palm Springs was forced to enact an ordinance requiring their removal from San Gorgonio.  But California's Kern County, encompassing the Tehachapi area, has no such law. Wind Power advocate Paul Gipe, who got his start as an early 1970s environmental activist at Indiana's Ball State University, describes a 1998 Tehachapi tour thusly:

    "Our bus drove directly through the Tehachapi Gorge passing the abandoned Airtricity site with its derelict Storm Master and Wind-Matic turbines and the deserted Wind Source site with its defunct Aeroman machines. We also got a freeway-close glimpse of Zond's wind wall with its 400 Vestas V15 turbines, the former Arbutus site on rugged Pajuela Peak where only the Bonus turbines are still in service, and steep-sided Cameron Ridge topped with FloWind's few remaining Darrieus turbines before reaching SeaWest, our first stop.

    "As we approached SeaWest from the desert town of Mojave, the old Micon 108s were spinning merrily, but the Mitsubishis with their higher start-up speed were just coming to life. SeaWest and Fluidyne had done a commendable job of cleaning the Mitsubishis of their infamous oil leaks for the tour's arrival."

dead soldiers

But addressing a Heritage Foundation seminar last May, Dr. Gabriel Calzada, Professor of King Juan Carlos University in Madrid explained  what Feed In Tariffs and other wind subsidies did to Spain (as well as Portugal and Greece) got into debt:

    "The feed-in tariff... would make (utility) companies go bankrupt eventually.  So...the government guarantees...to give back the money in the future -- when (they) are not going to be in the office any more.  Slowly the market does not want to have these securities that they are selling.  Right now there is a debt related to these renewable energies that nobody knows how it is going to be paid -- of 16 Billion Euros."

In early 2009 the Socialist government of Spain reduced alternative energy subsidies by 30%.  Calzada continues:

    "At that point the whole pyramid collapsed.  They are firing thousands of people.  BP closed down the two largest solar production plants in Europe.  They are firing between 25,000 and 40,000 people...."

    "What do we do with all this industry that we have been creating with subsidies that now is collapsing?  The bubble is too big.  We cannot continue pumping enough money.  ...The President of the Renewable Industry in Spain (wrote a column arguing that) ...the only way is finding other countries that will give taxpayers' money away to our industry to take it and continue maintaining these jobs."

That "other country" is the United States of America.

Waxman-Markey seems dead, and Europe's southern periphery is bankrupt.  But the wind-subsidy proposals being floated in Congress suggest that American political leaders have yet to understand that "green power" means generating electricity by burning dollars.

Maybe if someone invents the perfect, maint-free turbine, will these things be effective at a large scale level...but even if they ARE, the tax dollars that buy them seem to be going to
China

[Skuzzy]

According the pro-wind sites, wind energy costs about $0.5 per kilowatt hour.  That is more than double the costs over nuclear power.  They also get a $0.15 per kilowatt hour tax credit.

They also fully acknowledge the customer costs for power will increase as well.  As to how much depends on the location.

[bj229r]

I think the plan is to make coal cost-prohibitive via endlessly increasing regulation, that nuke and wind won't seem so bad by comparison. I live in the coal-capital of the world. and my cost per kwatt has increased 25% in the last 3 years

[warhed]

Good timing on an interesting article in the NYT this morning.  What are your thoughts on this one war? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/business/energy-environment/19minireactor.html?ref=business   (please read the article, not just the title )

Spent nuclear fuel is a problem, but it's a problem we already have, and have had since the 1950s.  If the nuclear power programs ended today, we still have 50 some years worth of spent fuel that needs a safe depository.  Some European country (cannot recall at the moment) is storing it under the ocean in I believe salt deposits.  We have a mountain that is all ready to go, just need to hear the yes word, and we have a safe place to store it for the next few thousand years.  Within that time the waste will of reached the same radioactive levels of topsoil.  

There is even bacteria that eats through nuclear waste, and basically defecates concentrated radioactive material.  So you could greatly shrink the size of the waste itself.  We still have at least a decade, more if we expand our spent fuel pools, before we would be in a drastic-no-more-room to store it on site situation.  But how safe do you feel in this day and age with 100 separate locations across the country storing spent fuel?

[warhed]

We could easily lower the cost on Nuclear Power.  Step 1 is upgrading the grid, this will also open the door for new renewable resource power production technologies.  Without a new grid, you can throw a clean power producing future out the window.  Build all the nuclear and wind farms you want, without a modern grid capable of reliably and cheaply handling the power, you will never bring cost down enough for the industry to take off.

Within 25 years, this country will be wanting more power than the grid is putting out.  That means forced blackouts, and also accidental blackouts.  Once the blackouts start occurring, they are going to get worse.  If we wait until then it is going to be too late.

Wind/solar/hydro is great, nuclear is clean, natural gas is plentiful.  But with an outdated grid, these technologies will remain expensive. 

There is simply no other source of power that has been developed that is even close to the output nuclear can provide.  A coal plant requires constant inflow of coal, to keep boiling water.  Wind farms need to be absolutely massive (State size) to produce the same amount as a single Nuke.  An existing nuclear plant only needs to be refueled every 2-6 years.  About 10 train cars worth for that long ain't bad, look up how much coal gets burned in the same time to really see the difference.

We either need more coal plants, or more nuclear.  Wind is never going to be an equal, it will only supplement gross output in small fractions.

[soda72]

I have seen those wind farms, but I have no idea who is using them.  What company owns them?  Are they just testing, or are they actually being used to generate power?

I don't know who owns them.  I suppose it's T. Boone Pickens...

It's amazing how large they are..

There is a highway from Thistle Cannon to Salt Lake City where there are three or four of them.  They are so large you can see them from miles away.  I didn't realize how large they were until we started getting closer.  By the time we were right next to them to where we could see them in full scale it was just mind blowing how large they are.  The blades alone look like they were as big as a football field. I don't know if the ones around DFW are as large but they looked like they were pretty good size too. 

[Skuzzy]

That new wind generator GE is testing uses a prop that is 376 feet in diameter.  That's another 25 yards larger than a football field.  Being attached to 90 tons worth of generator, it needs to be pretty good size.

[Penguin]

This windmill appears to be emitting something.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKkTUY2slYQ&feature=related

I bet that smoke is far more toxic than anythig a coal burning power plant puts out.

Occam's razor applies here: don't you think that it's more probable that the windmill caught on fire?

(Not so)common sense does too: why aren't the rest of them emitting that?

Come on man, think about what you're saying first!

-Penguin

[smoe]

Solar cells are a good way to go. With current state and federal grants they will pay for themselves in 10-15 years, possibly sooner if the price of electric goes up, my guess is a 200% price increase in 5-10 years. Solar cells require very little maintenance and last 30+ years. The key importance with solar energy is supplying power at the peak time which happens about the same time the sun is at its strongest. The peak power demands are 4-5 times during weekday afternoons than at 3:00am in the morning. This peak demand is the reason why blackouts occur on hot summer afternoons when the A/C's are cranking. We really need more solar and wind power.

[bj229r]

Solar and wind are nice, but they are the amperage equivalent of rolling a bb down the middle of a 6 lane highway. The lawyers who run our country are very idealistic, but certainly NOT electrical engineers

[Angus]

According the pro-wind sites, wind energy costs about $0.5 per kilowatt hour.  That is more than double the costs over nuclear power.  They also get a $0.15 per kilowatt hour tax credit.

They also fully acknowledge the customer costs for power will increase as well.  As to how much depends on the location.

In that case, small windfarms make much cheaper energy. Odd.....

[warhed]

Solar cells are a good way to go. With current state and federal grants they will pay for themselves in 10-15 years, possibly sooner if the price of electric goes up, my guess is a 200% price increase in 5-10 years. Solar cells require very little maintenance and last 30+ years. The key importance with solar energy is supplying power at the peak time which happens about the same time the sun is at its strongest. The peak power demands are 4-5 times during weekday afternoons than at 3:00am in the morning. This peak demand is the reason why blackouts occur on hot summer afternoons when the A/C's are cranking. We really need more solar and wind power.

Odd little tidbit here, our nuke plant turns on it's diesel generators (2 very, very large ones) during spiking demand.  We were doing that all the way back in 2003.  Do you honestly think wind and solar will be able to increase the supply, to keep it larger than our demand in the next 20 years?

[sluggish]

Solar cells are a good way to go. With current state and federal grants they will pay for themselves in 10-15 years, possibly sooner if the price of electric goes up, my guess is a 200% price increase in 5-10 years. Solar cells require very little maintenance and last 30+ years. The key importance with solar energy is supplying power at the peak time which happens about the same time the sun is at its strongest. The peak power demands are 4-5 times during weekday afternoons than at 3:00am in the morning. This peak demand is the reason why blackouts occur on hot summer afternoons when the A/C's are cranking. We really need more solar and wind power.

Where do you think those grants come from?

[rabbidrabbit]

Solar cells are a good way to go. With current state and federal grants they will pay for themselves in 10-15 years, possibly sooner if the price of electric goes up, my guess is a 200% price increase in 5-10 years. Solar cells require very little maintenance and last 30+ years. The key importance with solar energy is supplying power at the peak time which happens about the same time the sun is at its strongest. The peak power demands are 4-5 times during weekday afternoons than at 3:00am in the morning. This peak demand is the reason why blackouts occur on hot summer afternoons when the A/C's are cranking. We really need more solar and wind power.

What if you live in a northern climate and have trees?

[Angus]

In northern climates, electricity is often used for heating. There you can power your boiler on a wind-generator, using heated water as a "battery" for windstill days.
Another way of saving power for heating air would be visible here:
http://www.varmadaela.is/varmadaelur.html
These little devils use only a friction of the power that a normal heater does. About 1/5th I think.