Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability

[hazed-]

Mandoble i agree the 190 dora is perched somewhere between the 190a5 and 190a8 in terms of manouverability but you are forgeting the difference in speed and power the dora enjoys.
I flew 190a8 almost exclusively for many tours and i know the plane is very capable dog fighter but it is different!.I use totally different methods to get a resolving shot in the 190 compared to say a spit or p47.But!, it was always a problem if you got caught up or had to trick others into missreading your e state etc.
Well now i have the dora i have found that 'extra' something i always lacked and my kills/losses in it have improved considerably.In AH the dora will get you out of situations the 190a5 and 190a8 would flounder in.It has the same 190 querks which you have to learn the hard way but once learned it can be a deadly fighter and to be honest i feel so far in AH the dora has the feel of the aircraft ive read so much about.
The f4uc still feels abnormally deadly to me but i dont see so many now so im going to give up trying to get it changed.
Im just waiting for the dora is uber crap to start now the USAAF fans have a worthy opponent.



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Hazed
3./JG2

[Naudet]

hazed, plz share ur wisdom with me  

i need to know a few tricks to get firing solution in a 1on1

[Vermillion]

LOL! Sorry I was so late to join the thread  

And FYI for all you guys that think I am "anti-Luftwaffe", Hostile shores will be the first scenario I have flown as Allied in about my last 12 or so scenarios. And in alot of those I was the Axis XO or CO, SO   !!

Naudet, most of what I would say has already been covered in the thread.  And I'm at work, so I don't have any resources to quote wingloadings and powerloadings.

But here is what I can add:

The Dora is a poor turner no matter what, and up against a P-47 there are several factors that make the difference. Intial positions & E states, fuel loads, pilot skills & tactics used.

You already said that he started out with an E advantage, and we don't know who the P-47 pilot was. (If it was Drex, I'm just gonna laugh, he's a magician in a P47).

So lets talk about tactics. Realize these are just my own opinons, and feel free to disagree with me.

First off the worst defensive manuever you can use is the Split S, and way too many pilots in AH use it almost exclusively. It gives away too much E, and never gives you a chance at equalizing Energy states. If your getting bounced from a higher and much faster enemy, even a poor turning aircraft like the Dora can use a rolling break turn, to make the enemy miss without giving up any E. And after a couple of passes the E states will equalize, giving you the opportunity to engage on an equal footing, or if you prefer to disengage and run away.

Second, the Dora can dive away from a Jug on his six, given similar starting E (realize that I don't mean he is at 300yards and firing if this is the case you lost the fight much earlier). Especially since your roll rate is better. Just make sure as you dive down, using lazy rolling movements, so that you don't dive in a straight line. As the fight gets low on the deck, continue to to use very low G turns to spoil any easy shot, and once his dive speed bleeds off, your deck speed will allow you to pull away very quickly.

The problems you are experiencing offensively, are the same problems that Pony drivers experience when they are new to the plane. Its hard to get into a good offensive firing position, with a plane that does not relatively turn very well, against an enemy that is actively defending againtst you. You just need more time, practice, and furballs with enemies that aren't paying attention  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by Naudet:
As i said i have np to hit with the DORA, i have probs to move this birdy

Naudet, the way I measure the chance to hit in a plane is based on the "hit percentage" and the range. Hit percentages greater than 0.1000 are good for 300 yards or less, anything else implies spray&pray at some level. I can hit with the Dora spending 1/4 of the ammo load at 300 yards, but IMO this is just "having serious problems to hit with a bird".

Try 109, you'll see that hitting at 300 yards or less is just EASY. Try the same with A5 or A8 2x20mm, much harder than 109. And then compare it with the D9. With D9, 90% of my first shoots on any enemy drop below or aside the con and alert him. Turning tracers off is even worse.

[AKSeaWulfe]

I'm thinking it isn't the plane... it's the pilots flying the plane....
Stain has 22 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Fw 190D-9.
-SW

[Naudet]

Vermillion, thanks for the advice, i normally enjoy (like now) ur view on every topic.

As u may have read, i used the  rolling brake turn (is this a flat turn?) after i droped to 5 K, but simply to get out by diving did not come to my mind, cause i was facing a P47 the mighty dive monster, next time i try it.

And to Mandoble, my Hit percentage is 6-7% atm. And i start to open fire normally at 450 yrads (much to early, and i still try to get impossible deflection shoots   ).

If we take the case enemy at 300 yrds. flying level, i only need a short burst 1-2 secs. to ruin his day. Convergenc is 300 yrds.
If i am in one of my beloved furballs (hehe cause i survive them normally) or have the luck of running into enemies not paying attention, i normally run outta fuel before ammo is ever close to be short.

Average of rounds used in such cases are the following:
20 mm= 50 rounds
13mm= 80 rounds

this is about 10 %of the ammo load for a kill, i dont think this is to much.

But i will try to get experience in other often used birds the next weeks and compare it, if my hit % goes up while not flying D9 u might be right.


Just for Seawulf:

I have 60 kills in D9 and only died 9 times in it. For a guy flying AH only 5 weeks this lloks good to me  

[This message has been edited by Naudet (edited 03-28-2001).]

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by Naudet:

Just for Seawulf:

I have 60 kills in D9 and only died 9 times in it. For a guy flying AH only 5 weeks this lloks good to me  

Yup, I know. I looked it up. Santa has an amazing kill/death too. I'm just saying, the plane is fantastic and fits the idea of how it performed in WWII in my mind. The turning ability is very very good, but once you bleed away it's energy it goes to pot... which is how it should. It's heavier on the controls than the A5, but lighter than the A8. As it should be. The guns are amazing, get between 3 and 6 kills a flight with it. The convergence is pushed out to 650 yards, this gives me comfortable room to open fire on guys trying to extend. At it's operational altitude and at a speed greater than 275MPH the 190D9 is an absolute menace.

I'm just trying to say, just because someone is a "dedicated" 190 pilot doesn't mean they are going to wreak havoc in the D9 just because they have this idea it's the latest and greatest. If you fly more than one type of aircraft you are going to do a LOT better in the D9 than you would if you just flew the 190 or 109 series.

FYI, the zoom in that plane is by far the best in the arena. I zoomed away from a Typhoon the other night when an F4U zoomed up behind me from further away. I just began to roll when the F4U was opening fire. He hit my engine and I lost it. He stalled out before me, I dove down and blew him to bits.

It's a great plane, just gotta know how to use it and keep it away from the deck.
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

SeaWulfe, K/D means nothing even in conjuntion with K/T and hit percentage for few amount of kills. If, for a single plane type, the K/D is maintained with an above average K/T and a hit percentage greater than  0.1000 for a good amount of kills (100 or more), then we'll be talking about the pilot and not the plane, else, any factor aside the pilot may be involved in the ratios.

[Kratzer]

I find the A5 and D9 much easier to maneuver than the 109Gs... but I know that a large part of that is due to my style, and that I like to scream around the sky as fast as I can, and the Dora does great a speeds that will lock up the G10.  The speed of the Dora combined with above average roll rate, decent turning and E retention, and control in a dive are the things which make it one of the best birds in there. I personally think the P51D has the overall edge, but the Dora is damn good.

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
SeaWulfe, K/D means nothing even in conjuntion with K/T and hit percentage for few amount of kills. If, for a single plane type, the K/D is maintained with an above average K/T and a hit percentage greater than  0.1000 for a good amount of kills (100 or more), then we'll be talking about the pilot and not the plane, else, any factor aside the pilot may be involved in the ratios.

I started flying it yesterday after you said that the gunnery was a bad joke.

I had about a 1.00K/D and a .98something K/Sortie from flying the C205. I jumped into the Fw190D9 a little while afterwards and my gunnery went up .1% as did my K/D and K/Sortie.

The plane isn't broken.
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

SeaWulfe, this has been recently discused in another thread, anyway I'll expose you my experiences here.

When I fly 109 I basically know where to aim to hit a plane at first attempt, even in hi angle snapshots at short range. The same is aplicable to 190A8/A5, but, obviously with different parameters than 109. With D9 I use same parameters than A8/A5, but it doesn't work. This is the point, aiming the same way I use with A series, the result is frustrating for same convergence settings. AFAIK, the D9 have the internal guns in the exact same disposition that A8/A9, the extra lenght of the nose is not an issue due the actual cockpit art gives the same view area for any 190.

If you are comming from C205 to D9, you are, for sure, expecting differences in gunnery. But the case is that I'm comming from 190A5/A8 to D9 and I didn't expect any change in gunnery.

A last note: I'm talking only about the guns Mg151/20, not the MGs.

[StSanta]

The plane isn't broken, but there's something fishy about the guns, at least for some players.

I doubt that such a large and dedicated group of 190 drivers are merely whining here.

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Lephturn]

I'm going to ignore the D9 gunnery issue, that's not what this thread is about.

Now, lets start with the fact that the P47 in question had an energy advantage, AND a positional advantage from the sounds of things.  Now Naudet says the Jug had E and "decelerated and stayed on my six at 300 yards".  The trick is, in order to stay on your six he didn't cut throttle and slow down... he simply used lag pursuit.  I KNOW this is what happened, and I can prove it.  If the Jug was at 300 yards on your FE and in lead pursuit you would be dead.  The only way you lived that long is if the Jug driver is patiently sitting in lag pursuit conserving energy.  This attacker might well have been me... this is exactly how I would handle a DoRun.  You pulled a hard turn.  Now as Jug pilot I know that our turning performance is fairly close, and will depend more on gas load and E than anything else, and I have the E.  Now I would likely use a high yoyo to conserver more E if I can.. but the ONLY way I can do what you describe is by using lag pursuit of some sort to travel farther than you are at a higher speed, thus keeping more speed (E) but staying on your six and maintaining the same distance.  Basically, at this point the D9 is burning E as fast as possible, while the Jug has used greater speed and lag pursuit to keep position and range, waiting for the D9 to bleed his life away.  Once Naudet had blown all his E and was slow and helpless, the Jug pilot simply pulled harder for the shot, burning that extra E he saved, and blew his bellybutton away.

Nothing wrong here at all.  The 47 pilot knew his business.  He used his E advantage to put himself in a position where he could sit back and conserve his energy, waiting for the D9 to blow his.

Now, how could you have beaten him?  Well first of all, a Jug with an E advantage is a very tough opponent for any of the 190's.  Turn performance is close enough that you can't count on it.  You don't out-dive one.. what's left?  Acceleration.  The Jug can't accelerate very well at all, and I'd say the D9 is one of the better accelerators in the game.  Now at this point you are defensive because the Jug has all the cards.  You must try a sucker move.  That means a defensive spiral, scissors, or some other move designed to force an overshoot.  You want to shallow dive for speed to get the Jug really wound up, then as he gets close enough simply roll into a HARD scissors, cut your throttle, and pop flap if you can.  If you do it right, by the second turn he's blown on past, and you may have a shot as he overshoots.  You can either try to use your great acceleration to follow him up as he zooms, or roll opposite and bug out.  You can out accelerate the Jug, so any move that slows both planes down is a good idea, since you can get your plane back up to speed much faster than he can.  If he has a lot more E, and you don't want to try to follow him, the second he zooms after the overshoot, you need to roll into his blind side and do a 0G shallow diving extension.  Having been on both ends of this, I know that the D9 will leave the Jug behind like it's tied to a tree.  The Jug doesn't have the acceleration to follow that, and it isn't nearly fast enough.  The D9 is MUCH faster level than a Jug, so once you have 1k of separation the D9 can now dictate the fight or bug out.  In the scissors move the Jug has either burned a ton of E and slowed way down to stay with you, or he has overshot and zoomed to try and escape being shot, using his greater E to get above you.  Either way, you now either have the separation or the more equal energy states you need to escape in the D9.

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
The plane isn't broken, but there's something fishy about the guns, at least for some players.

I doubt that such a large and dedicated group of 190 drivers are merely whining here.

From Tour 12:
AKSWulfe has 74 kills and has been killed 17 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 10:
AKSWulfe has 51 kills and has been killed 29 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 9:
AKSWulfe has 197 kills and has been killed 51 times in the fw190A-5.
Tour 7:
AKSWulfe has 115 kills and has been killed 18 times in the fw190A-5.
EDIT
Tour 6:
AKSWulfe has 168 kills and has been killed 25 times in the fw190A-5.


Ssssooo, you can hardly call me inexperienced in the 190 series or even a bad 190 pilot.

Simple fact of the matter is, the plane and the guns are not broke. You have to fly it appropriately. Just because *SOME* players are having problems with the guns, does not equate to the guns being broke. I'm willing to bet that they are expecting the D9 to aim like the A5.

With the stubby nose on the A5, the cannons will appear to converge higher above the front of the nose. In the D9 the cannons will appear to converge lower because of it's longer nose.

Do you see the same amount of road in front of you in a '67 Mustang and a '99 Honda Civic? No.

EDIT:::
A 190D9 will never keep a sustained turn inside of a Jug. Given enough energy, the 190D9 has a very good initial turn. After that you best be going vertical and getting altitude to make another pass. You'll never turn with a Jug.
-SW


[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Glunz]

Maybe more than any other plane, 190 needs speed to be successful. Flying it successfully means almost one thing only – watch your speed, you are never too fast.

Lose sight – lose fight can be translated to lose speed – lose fight. For 190 pilot, that is. Literally.

Since maneuvering bleeds off speed, any violent control deflection must be taken with great care. The speed bleed is making you very vulnerable. When you are out of speed, you better have alt to quickly trade it for speed, or you are in big trouble. Enemy pilots can be total newbies and they can still give you trouble if you are low and slow in 190. If you manage to escape from those situations, consider yourself victorous.

Forget about sustained turning. That’s for kids. High speed control authority and corner turn are enough.

It never ceases to amaze me how people have problems with 190 pilots’ style. They are mostly called running dweebs etc. It is like calling Spit pilot a turning dweeb. The 190 is one of the toughest plane to fly right. How many times a 190 pilot has to refuse the fight, how many times he has to stay away from the lead turn which which he would do in other planes, how many times he sees mistakes of enemy pilots he cannot take advantage of ?

Flying 190 is one of the toughest things in AH, especially since every plane outturns you and great deal of them outruns, outclimbs and outdives you.  

Dora is the blessing for 190 pilot. It can still be outturned, outclimbed here and there, but outrun and outdived only by best of them.

IMO, Dora dives just as good (if not better) as P47. Once it levels off near the deck, it becomes clear why it is a better plane  .