Flaps in a fight

[CAP1]

Me and Grizz had a great fight last night in the DA.....G14 vs F6F. It shouldnt have lasted that long but I guess I got lucky and hit his 30

But afterwards Grizz asked me a question about when I was using my flaps. I was retracting them when my nose was down(to gain E I think) then putting them out when my nose was above the horizon. He said he was doing the opposite of that. Dropping flaps when his nose was down to cut that corner a bit better, then retracting them to gain more alt.

The fight wasnt going anywhere, my fingers ended up getting tired and I tried to do something but yea it didnt work. Which is correct? Do different planes require different flap tactics to gain an advantage? The 2 aircraft do have completely different types of fighting styles to them...

i hate grizz in that dam 109.......he never seems to miss. 

[bozon]

Sorry but where are you getting these numbers...you sound too sure.

Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.

My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. New players hear so much about flaps like: "F4u/P38 is a great plane once you learn how to use flaps... bla bla" that they get the impression that they are really important. Rubbish. For them, the attention that they give the flaps with the in/out/in/out or wondering "should I use 5 or 6 notches? do I feel lucky, punk?" only makes them fly worse, but feel very sophisticated pressing a lot of buttons. In the rare cases where flaps do really make a difference it doesn't matter of you used 3 or 4 notches and REALLY doesn't matter if you just pulled them and left them out or do the in/out/in/out sequence.

This thread is clear evidence that it makes so little difference that there is no clear answer should you pull them in or out when pulling up in scissors. My clear answer is do whatever, then leave them alone and concentrate of SA and precision flying. Geometry cheat FTW.

[Ack-Ack]

Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.

My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. .

You are incorrect.


ack-ack

[lulu]

With the only flaps usage i never turned better then more skilled pilots.
So i think that there is some other stuff to considerer, something like badboy explained and something else ...

 

[grizz441]

So i think that there is some other stuff to considerer

Aircraft combat maneuvering. 

I think correct flap usage is lower on the totem poll as far as importance goes but it will play a factor if you get into a deadlock fight.  For example, an endless looping battle.  That's what me and junky found ourselves in in a peculiar matchup G14 vs F6F.

[Wiley]

Well, they're just a tool.  They don't do anything magical, but their use at the right time can make an enormous difference on some planes.  Less so in others.

I've been getting my head wrapped around the F4U-1A, and at first I couldn't see the big deal about the flaps, where everybody raved about them.  I prefer to keep that plane fast anyways for the most part.  Then the other night I wound up making a bad move and getting into a turnfight with a spit of some kind, Co-E, on the deck starting at 130-150mph.  I dropped a couple or 3 notches of flaps as the spit started into a series of straight loops.  I don't know why either, but it seemed to make him happy.  We weren't deviating at all, just straight (well as close to straight as a couple mediocre pile-its can fly them in here) vertical loops.

It just so happened I was low on fuel.  Not sure how low, but probably below 1/4 tank on the main, with my wing tanks burned down to 1/4 each.  In that series of loops under WEP, I was riding the stall horn pretty much all the way around once my nose got above the horizon, but I was constantly gaining on the guy.  They let me get over the top, and shortened my turning radius at the bottom. 2 1/2 loops or so later, I pulled lead and killed him.  This is with dead straight, nose to tail, me running on WEP with 2 or 3 notches of flaps.  It felt like I could continue doing that maneuver until WEP ran out, I wasn't gradually slowing down.

I did an off-the-cuff couple of tests later in the evening, with more fuel, and couldn't get the same result with that maneuver.  It seems to me it was the fuel weight that made the difference.  In my testing I'd stall out on the way up on the second loop.

I've also had plenty of situations where a guy was trying to force the overshoot and my flaps allowed me to stay behind him by slowing me down.

They're not even remotely close to necessary, but I do believe that situationally, and between a pair of pilots of equal skill (whether they be top-shelf or mediocre guys that are still trying to use ACM) their proper use can make a difference.

Wiley.

[BaldEagl]

Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.

My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. New players hear so much about flaps like: "F4u/P38 is a great plane once you learn how to use flaps... bla bla" that they get the impression that they are really important. Rubbish. For them, the attention that they give the flaps with the in/out/in/out or wondering "should I use 5 or 6 notches? do I feel lucky, punk?" only makes them fly worse, but feel very sophisticated pressing a lot of buttons. In the rare cases where flaps do really make a difference it doesn't matter of you used 3 or 4 notches and REALLY doesn't matter if you just pulled them and left them out or do the in/out/in/out sequence.

This thread is clear evidence that it makes so little difference that there is no clear answer should you pull them in or out when pulling up in scissors. My clear answer is do whatever, then leave them alone and concentrate of SA and precision flying. Geometry cheat FTW.

I'll agree and disagree.

For a beginner or novice you are correct.  They should be worried more with BFM, ACM and SA and forget about things like throttle, flaps and rudder until they have that part down.

Once they do however, then those other elements can make a difference in a fight.  I think of flap useage in terms of "the moment" that I need to bring the nose around quicker, be that in a flat turn, going over the top or any other position that I might be in, realizing that any use of flaps comes at a reduction in E state.  So what defines "the moment"?  It could be an opportunity to align a shot, a need to escape an opponent's shot or the need to avoid an inverted stall among other things.

The common wisdom of using flaps coming over the top is justified as, in most cases, you have climbed to retain E and are coming over at low speed.  The use of flaps to get the nose pointed back down comes at little additional loss of E in this case as your options are to continue without flaps, burning E to get over or burn E using flaps to get the nose over faster and begin to regain E sooner.

As to the use of multiple flap stages, again, it depends on how fast I need the nose to come around and how much E I'm willing to give up to make that happen.  At extremely low speeds that extra notch of flaps might be the one that wins it for you or it might just be the one that makes you unstable and ultimately looses the fight for you.  At corner speeds a quick deployment and retraction can be hugely beneficial in gaining angles.

And all of that depends on the plane you're flying.  For instance flap use in most American fighters helps while in most British fighters it's a detriment.

I don't think there's any hard and fast rules.  Flap use is a very dynamic situation that can only be learned by trial and error for the plane you fly but used properly they can help a lot.

[JunkyII]

Of course I am sure, I made them up myself. No help from anyone, so I take full credit.

My point was that some player obsess so much about the usage of flaps that they do not notice it hardly make any difference what you do with them. Yes, yes, one can measure the effect and some actually did, but almost all fights that you won would have been won no matter what you did with the flaps. New players hear so much about flaps like: "F4u/P38 is a great plane once you learn how to use flaps... bla bla" that they get the impression that they are really important. Rubbish. For them, the attention that they give the flaps with the in/out/in/out or wondering "should I use 5 or 6 notches? do I feel lucky, punk?" only makes them fly worse, but feel very sophisticated pressing a lot of buttons. In the rare cases where flaps do really make a difference it doesn't matter of you used 3 or 4 notches and REALLY doesn't matter if you just pulled them and left them out or do the in/out/in/out sequence.

This thread is clear evidence that it makes so little difference that there is no clear answer should you pull them in or out when pulling up in scissors. My clear answer is do whatever, then leave them alone and concentrate of SA and precision flying. Geometry cheat FTW.

I think your thinking about more of a MA fight where almost everything is E. Im talking what I call "knife fights" 1v1s where its anyones ball game for a bit till something makes better use of say flaps/throttle to get that little extra angle or E on his enemy

[bozon]

I think your thinking about more of a MA fight where almost everything is E. Im talking what I call "knife fights" 1v1s where its anyones ball game for a bit till something makes better use of say flaps/throttle to get that little extra angle or E on his enemy

True. But even in a duel, there is not much point in fiddling with the flaps. Either they come out and stay out, or they don't. I didn't say they are useless, but putting them out and in is a risky business. It is ill advised to be on the edge of stall when the flaps retract: the maximum allowed AoA drops and you are suddenly thrown into the stall. If you extend them in a nose low attitude you may be able to increase AoA for a moment, but then the auto-retract may suddenly hit and again you are thrown into a stall.

In dead-lock situations flaps can make the difference. BUT:
a) jerking the flaps will not make a difference vs. just leaving them out.
b) I avoid symmetrical fights at any cost. I prefer to start the fight in a disadvantage rather then mirroring each other's actions and getting right into a looping or circling contest.

[JunkyII]

True. But even in a duel, there is not much point in fiddling with the flaps. Either they come out and stay out, or they don't. I didn't say they are useless, but putting them out and in is a risky business. It is ill advised to be on the edge of stall when the flaps retract: the maximum allowed AoA drops and you are suddenly thrown into the stall. If you extend them in a nose low attitude you may be able to increase AoA for a moment, but then the auto-retract may suddenly hit and again you are thrown into a stall.

In dead-lock situations flaps can make the difference. BUT:
a) jerking the flaps will not make a difference vs. just leaving them out.
b) I avoid symmetrical fights at any cost. I prefer to start the fight in a disadvantage rather then mirroring each other's actions and getting right into a looping or circling contest.

Same I hate circles......I never can get around on people, I was hoping maybe better flap tactics could help me get the upper hand

[SPKmes]

Not that I'm a big flap user....I find....Most American flaps are very useful at mid to high ranges (except for the F6F and FM2 which can take it to the lower speeds and keep in the fight..those things are just crazy).....German planes it is the mid to low speed ranges (low speed, torque and flaps make the 109 amazing to watch in the right hands) and the other planes sets are neither here nor there...sure they help but not to the same degree...and in some planes it is down right disastrous to get flaps out.....It all comes down to your knowledge of the plane too......That's my take on flaps.....that is all. 

[BaldEagl]

except for the F6F and FM2..those things are just crazy

In what way?  I got into a fight in an F6F a few days ago against a D Pony and was using flaps consistantly.

Of course he had the speed advantage and was able to break off whenever he wanted.  I was also carrying 6 rockets because I wasn't going to let a little fight force me to dump my remaining ord.

Flaps were very useful.  They come out around 250 mph.

Finally, in a desperate move to get the guy before he broke off again I dumped another notch at stall speed, wobbled and as I was recovering I got a few parts blown off.  After that I couldn't really fly very well and that ended it.

It was a good, long, fun one-on-one though regardless of the outcome.

I've got to learn to dump the ords.  Too often I'm fighting with full fuel and ords attached but I guess it adds to the challenge.

[SPKmes]

That is the thing..the pony could turn with you to a point then had to break off to get back the speed to come back and continue to turn fight you (I'm presuming he/she was turning with you)...the F6 and F4 are able to stay and keep turning to an advantage at the lower speeds and as you mentioned with rockets ...that is what I was meaning by they are crazy... The pony is a very capable turn fighter.
That is what I have noticed with the fights I have had with the F6 and F4...I can not fly them well and half the stuff that some guys pull off in them is wicked..and with the armour they are a force unto them selves.

 I re-read my other post and edited

[JunkyII]

Not that I'm a big flap user....I find....Most American flaps are very useful at mid to high ranges (except for the F6F and FM2..those things are just crazy).....German planes it is the mid to low speed ranges (low speed, torque and flaps make the 109 amazing to watch in the right hands) and the other planes sets are neither here nor there...sure they help but not to the same degree...and in some planes it is down right disastrous to get flaps out.....It all comes down to your knowledge of the plane too......That's my take on flaps.....that is all. 

I agree for the most part, but American rides all have ubber flaps. Hog having the ubberest of all, Ponys both have pretty good flaps that can help you get away from a higher con same with the jugs...all deploy flaps at higher speeds. The 38 in my opinion is alot like the 109s once flaps are out and someone who knows how to fly it is in control.....its a tough bird to crack.


Americans always taking the easy way out

[strong10]

Hey gents.  I think flaps on every plane do the same thing.   Flaps essentially increase the wing size creating more lift.       

Advantage- Planes can fly slower and not stall with flaps.
Advantage- You can slow rapidly or increase descent rate without picking up speed.
Advantage- Due to increased lift, stall speed is decreased so planes can pull higher g's and not have an accelerated stall. 
Advantage- When landing, use of flaps allows a plane to land with a slightly lower nose angle affording better visibility.

Disadvantage-  Drag is increased because of extra lift so planes need more power to keep speed up if you wanted to keep altitude.  In the game some aircraft are more disadvantaged than others because of power to weight ratio.

I'm always tapping my flaps buttons..in, out, in, out..  Makes me feel more sophisticated and my wife thinks I'm typing some important work rather than playing some game.