190A5 vs 190A8

[Ardy123]

I know there are many threads that say things like '190 performance is crippled, etc...' I'm not trying to start that here, I was just wondering that why according to the http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php the 190 A8 has worse performance than the 190 A5?

The 190 A5 engine 1,700 PS (1,677 hp, 1,250 kW)

The 190 A8 engine 1,980 PS (1,953 hp, 1,456 kW)

wouldn't that give it more power & make it climb faster and fly faster?

If the engine's power did not offset the weight gain, why did they add it?

It just doesn't make sense, why would a later revision of an airplane intended to be an 'improvement' have worse performance?

[Lusche]

The 190 A5 engine 1,700 PS (1,677 hp, 1,250 kW)

The 190 A8 engine 1,980 PS (1,953 hp, 1,456 kW)

In AH, the A8 weighs 900lbs more than the A5

[Krusty]

It actually weights 500 lbs more than the real A-8 did!

The reason is that the Germans were developing heavier and heavier firewpower. They were also trying to get the MW50 working on 190s (hence that aux tank you have in the A8, used for regular gas in this case). These outboard 20mm guns, 30mm guns, the strengtening of the frame, the heavier engine, the heavier 13mm cowl guns, all lead to weight gain.

It's like the 109G-6 gaining weight over the G-2. Overall it was well worth the improvements, and it was a more lethal killing machine. It just wasn't necesarilly the lightest or fastest.

[Wmaker]

It actually weights 500 lbs more than the real A-8 did!

Could you provide some primary source material that confirms this?

[Krusty]

crap.. just lost my post.

I posted some on it a while back, and compiled posts and comments from others as well.

I rechecked the forums with a search and must correct myself: The A8 is about 250 lbs overweight. (It was the F-8 that was 500lbs heavier than the A-8 but with identical climb/speed charts, another issue)

http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-1.jpg
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/translated-fwchart.jpg

Almost every chart I read lists 4300kg weights for a loaded 4x20mm 190A8. Ours is much heavier, leading to discussions on these forums in the past that maybe ours is modeled off of the "sturm" with the weight of the added armor included, but with OUT the actual armor! (attack anybody, anywhere, and you'll probably lose a cannon, or your oil, very easily).

In comparison, here is the recorded weights in AH (note: taken before the ETC rack had weight added to it!)

190A-8 2 guns 100% (169gal): 9360 lbs
190A-8 2 guns noaux% (139gal): 9178 lbs
190A-8 2 guns 0%: 8346 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (noMGAmmo) 100%: 9189 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9118 lbs
190A-8 4 guns 100% (169gal): 9682 lbs
190A-8 4 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9304 lbs
190A-8 30mm guns 100% (169gal): 9891 lbs
190A-8 30mm guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9506 lbs
190A-8 2 guns DT (248gal): 9900 lbs
190A-8 2 guns DT dry (169gal): 9426 lbs
190A-8 2 guns DT dropped (rack on): 9360 lbs

169 gal = 1,014 lbs
1 gal = 6 lbs
30 gal aux tank = 180 lbs
79 gal DT = 474 lbs
950 13mm rounds = 171 lbs
500 20mm rounds = 242 lbs
280 20mm rounds = 136 lbs
110 30mm rounds = 143 lbs
1x 13mm round = 0.18 lbs
1x 20mm round = .485/.486 lbs (in/out)
1x 30mm round = 1.3 lbs
2x MG151/20 plus 280 rounds = 322 lbs
each MG151/20 outboard = 93 lbs
2x 30mm plus 110 rounds = 531 lbs
each 30mm = 194 lbs
More weight than A-5 (not counting aux)= 596 lbs
Total DT weight = 540 lbs
Empty DT weight = 66 lbs
ETC rack weight = 0 lbs?


Bottom line is: Our A8 is very over-weight.


[edit: typo fix]

[jdbecks]

why has it not been fixed yet? if it was say the P51 that was over weight..there would be far more outcry on the forums

[Krusty]

you do some forum searches and folks were talking about it back as early as 2001 or so.

They were talking about MW50 since 1999 

P.S. That's not even counting the hot debate about our A-5 being modeled off of a ballasted G-3 after its capture by allies.

[Wmaker]

Yep, like I thought, about 100% error in your 500lbs figure for A-8...

The reason I asked was that during one of these A-8 weight discussions I went and checked the HTC home page's aircraft section's weight and it was 9481lbs to the pound. That was before the AH Wiki. I think we had the weights listed in the E6B at the time but I didn't feel the need to check in game. That info had been there from 1999 until the start of AH Wiki. I guess the weight has changed at some point. That first link's scan was scanned by Vermillion from a manual Gatt sent to him IIRC.

Similar case is with the A6M2. Before AH Wiki A6M2's weight was listed as 5313lbs in the home page's aircraft pages. An often quoted figure which might originate from Rene Francillon's Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War. The weight in AH is higher. Roughly 200lbs more IIRC.

Hopefully Pyro gets around to look into both of these figures at one point.

[jdbecks]

you do some forum searches and folks were talking about it back as early as 2001 or so.

They were talking about MW50 since 1999 

P.S. That's not even counting the hot debate about our A-5 being modeled off of a ballasted G-3 after its capture by allies.

having down some searching   I can not read no more as it makes me upset so much  .

One day  

[Greziz]

maybe all the planes are piloted by a man weighing roughly 200 lbs or so with his gear etc!? EVER THINK THE PILOT is the PROBLEM STOP BEING SO OBESE!

[Lusche]

maybe all the planes are piloted by a man weighing roughly 200 lbs or so with his gear etc!? EVER THINK THE PILOT is the PROBLEM STOP BEING SO OBESE!

So HTC modeled the pilot after me? What an honor! 

[Motherland]

maybe all the planes are piloted by a man weighing roughly 200 lbs or so with his gear etc!? EVER THINK THE PILOT is the PROBLEM STOP BEING SO OBESE!

Did you really think the Germans didn't take the pilot into account when calculating combat weights? I mean, they're Germans
The Fw 190D-9 weight table I have allows for 100kg (roughly 220lbs) for the pilot.

[Guppy35]

why has it not been fixed yet? if it was say the P51 that was over weight..there would be far more outcry on the forums

Now that's just a Luftwhine

Keep in mind it was Murdr, a 38 driver who came across the numbers showing the 38G was underweight by 600 pounds and HTC corrected it.  Some of us just kept on flying our 38Gs and didn't worry about it.  And yeah it was a US bird too and they fixed it despite the performance decrease!

[Ruah]

how about they keep the 200 pounds of weight on the zero, but give us self-sealing gas tanks, armored glass conopey and a tad more structural strength in a dive?

deal?

[Charge]

"The 190 A8 engine 1,980 PS (1,953 hp, 1,456 kW) "

Does AH A8 have such power? I thought it was 1800PS?

-C+