Author Topic: 190A5 vs 190A8  (Read 65253 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #180 on: April 06, 2010, 12:44:48 PM »
i agree about the preference for clear and accurate data, the core of my POV in this discussion is what you do when that kind of data is either conflicting and or unavailable.  

for example even if you could define the performance of an aircraft with just it's static well known numbers how do you address it's behavior in flight?  

the designer must make choices, and those choices have consequences on playability.  

i think hitech has concerns that go far beyond many of the things we are discussing here, he addresses things or doesn't for his own reasons, most of which (in my experience with online interactions) he keeps to himself.


Thorsim,

While I have not seen the code, I have had the opportunity to speak with Hitech, Pyro, Sudz, and Skuzzy numerous times both on the phone, and at the past two conventions. I find them to be very open and forthright about discussing how the game works, Hitech has gone to such lengths during my conversations, that he has pulled up the source code to verify cretin aspects that we were talking about.

So I feel very confident when I say that the FM physics are not rewritten for each plane, but that each aerodynamic model is using the same set of calculations to model it's behavior. Someone from HTC please chime in if I've stated that incorrectly.

And just to be absolutely clear, I agree with you that there is an issue with the Fw190A-8 performance. However, in my opinion the way to address the issue with HTC is with quantifiable data, not the subjective information you have provided.

 
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Offline jdbecks

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #181 on: April 06, 2010, 12:56:58 PM »
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Offline Angus

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #182 on: April 06, 2010, 01:04:00 PM »
Cool! Let us know what you find.

I could be lazy and email it to you :D
Anyway, so far, the only thing for sure is that the AH 109G6 is too slow at alt (8 km). Have to check out the Ata and weight to be sure, but that is how it is.
The speed at SL was good, a tad in favour by AH.
Then there is the question of subvariants.
Makes a bit of fun though. Since this is somewhat time-consuming, I do it while milling around the house and while on hold on the phone.
I'd be very happy to get my hands on some charts of the 190A5 and 109F. The only one of the 109F I have is both course, and with an unknown origin. The 109G6 data I have is absolutely solid.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline jdbecks

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #183 on: April 06, 2010, 01:04:18 PM »
Luftwaffe report of the 190 A8
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/td284.pdf

Flight report of the 190 D9
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/wright-field-fw190d-9.pdf

In the flight report of the 190 D9 they state that turn rate is poor.
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Offline Gaston

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #184 on: April 08, 2010, 02:36:30 AM »

    Great find JDbecks !!!

    This report is very detailed and confirms exactly what I have always suspected about the FW-190D-9 compared to the FW-190A-8: It converted the great low-speed horizontal turn-fighter-only that was the FW-190A into a mediocre-turning Me-109G clone that had great boom-and-zoom vertical performance (better-diving but likely still not quite as good climbing as the Me-109G)...

    I had previously read that actual FW-190A pilots found the D-9 to be inferior in maneuverability to the A-8, but superior in overall performance. They described the FW-190A-8's maneuvering superiority as being caused by the older aircraft type being "shorter-coupled", their words not mine, which I gradually integrated into my notion that the shorter nose could make, to some extent, a big difference in sustained turn handling by reducing the leverage of the prop's thrust to tax the wingloading...

    Note those other aircrafts that shortened their noses by switching to radials, their significant consequent gain in combat maneuverability being usually attributed falsely to lighter weight:

     Lagg-3 in-line converted to the radial La-5: Large gain in actual combat turn performance: La-5 was 250 lbs HEAVIER... Some Soviet turn times show them in a dead heat at 21-22 sec, but these tests were again usually run at full power by test pilots, so the 1300 HP Lagg-3 was handicapped with far less wingloading-taxing power than the 1800 HP La-5F, which could explain the similarity in sustained turn times at FULL power (a test pilot mania not always shared by combat veterans)... Lesser-powered Yaks do better for similar reasons: 19 seconds, but only about 1300 HP also.

     Ki-61 converted to Ki-100: 100 + lbs HEAVIER Ki-100 had such a turn performance boost that it was considered by the Japanese, in extensive tests, to be so superior to the Ki-84 that ONE Ki-100 could take on THREE Ki-84s and still come out on top regularly, and REPEAT the feat by switching the pilots around...

     One Ki-100 against one Ki-84 was considered no contest at all, and the Ki-100 would always win immediately, even with an altitude disadvantage... Again the same remained true while switching pilots... (These tests report are from Aeroplane's Ki-100 close-up article)

     Such superlatives in turn combat doctrine (after all, the Ki-84 was some 25-30 MPH faster at least: 420 vs 390 MPH...) are not really imaginable with the Ki-61, though the radial's extra horsepower did undoubtedly help in the turn-climbing of the Ki-100...

     The emphasis by the Japanese on turn-fighting was reflected by the Germans on the Western Front: The advice given to newly-arrived Eastern Front pilots was to ALWAYS turn with the Western Allies, and NEVER to try to climb or use the vertical... Boom and Zoom is only useable if you regularly enjoy an altitude and/or speed advantage: For various reasons, not often the case for either the Japanese or the Germans by 1944...

     As one Lufwaffe senior officer put it: "All the aces sent to me from the Eastern front got shot down on the Western Front..."

     I have even read one example of a Me-109G-14AS pilot that tried to climb, with MW-50 engaged, above diving Americans, and being pointed out as an example of a pilot who died because he refused to take the advice of turning and not using the vertical... This from a fellow pilot who survived the war...

     By late 1944 70% of Luftwaffe front-line Western-Front strenght was FW-190As, while the BF-109G remained dominant in the East, and for good reasons...

     The D-9's stall tests confirm my suspicions that the prop disc thrust contributes to taxing the wingloading: It is here plain to see:

     Quote: "Controls remain effective up to the stall except in the power off condition wherein some difficulty is experienced in applying enough elevator to obtain abrupt stalls"

     http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/wright-field-fw190d-9.pdf

      Note the speed at which this occurs is not mentionned: The same probably occurs in fairly high speed power-off situations: The reason is that, in addition to the elevator's authority being curtailed by reduced prop wash, the REAL-LIFE wingloading is at the same time reduced by the power-off condition, making the stalls less "clean"...

     You gotta love the clear and concise conclusion, confirming every sustained turning combat report I have read:

      "1-The FW-190D-9, although well armored and equipped to carry heavy armament, appears to be much less desirable from a handling standpoint than other models of the FW-190 using the BMW 14 cylinder radial engine."

         Any advantage this airplane may have in performance over other models of the FW-190 is more than offset by its poor handling characteristics."

       Except for boom-and-Zooming tactics, I couldn't have said it better myself...

       Gaston

Offline thorsim

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #185 on: April 08, 2010, 02:59:43 AM »
i always understood that the maneuverability trade off from the 190a to the 190d was a slightly reduced roll rate but an improved turn rate both a result of increased stability caused by the increased length of the airframe and the increased power/weight ...

« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 03:05:22 AM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Gaston

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #186 on: April 08, 2010, 03:14:46 AM »
   -So did I, until the lights went on for me about the true tactical nature of the Anton...

   Note the FW-190D-9's longer tail and different nose may have given the D-9 superior high speed elevator handling to the Anton, as the high-speed vertical handling of the Anton could hardly be worse...

    Gaston
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 03:22:38 AM by Gaston »

Offline Die Hard

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #187 on: April 08, 2010, 04:11:56 AM »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline save

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #188 on: April 08, 2010, 04:36:32 AM »
Dora D9 should be faster ( speed is life -specially late44+ ) than the A8, and much better performer at altitude.

Try and fly the 190a8 with 2 *20 - this is exactly how I expect a 4-gun A8 to behave.
Those who claim the A8 is overweight have a good point.

Adding GM-1 nitrox would be a lower eny ride , but a sweet one, countering allied escorts in scenarios, giving 38km/h more speed at altitude.








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Offline mtnman

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #189 on: April 08, 2010, 06:13:38 AM »


I've always heard the "coupled" description (as in shorter-coupled) as describing the distance between the wing and the horizontal tail.  I've never heard it used to describe how far the nose protrudes in front of the wing.

A disadvantage to a short nose would seem to be its ability to balance the plane through leverage, which would then require more weight.  To shorten the nose would seem to require a heavier engine (or adding weight).  A longer nose would allow a lighter engine.  Of course, I doubt they plan it that way.  My guess is they use the weight/size of the engine to determine how long the nose is.

The plane has to balance on the CoG.  And there's a trade-off for adding weight/shortening the nose.
MtnMan

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #190 on: April 08, 2010, 08:47:23 AM »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Stoney

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #191 on: April 08, 2010, 11:00:08 AM »
         Quote: "Controls remain effective up to the stall except in the power off condition wherein some difficulty is experienced in applying enough elevator to obtain abrupt stalls"

     http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/wright-field-fw190d-9.pdf

      Note the speed at which this occurs is not mentionned: The same probably occurs in fairly high speed power-off situations: The reason is that, in addition to the elevator's authority being curtailed by reduced prop wash, the REAL-LIFE wingloading is at the same time reduced by the power-off condition, making the stalls less "clean"...

More like the more-forward nature of the CG means the aircraft is fairly nose-heavy, and that you run out of elevator authority to induce a power-off stall.  And, you can't reduce wing loading by chopping the throttle.  Wing loading stays constant, unless you drop weight or lose a wing, since its a function of wing area and weight only.
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Offline Gaston

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #192 on: April 08, 2010, 02:03:49 PM »
More like the more-forward nature of the CG means the aircraft is fairly nose-heavy, and that you run out of elevator authority to induce a power-off stall.  And, you can't reduce wing loading by chopping the throttle.  Wing loading stays constant, unless you drop weight or lose a wing, since its a function of wing area and weight only.

   -Not just wing area and weight: That's the theoretical "reality". You can't reduce the THEORETICAL wingloading, but the real-life item yes:

     http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/339-hanseman-24may44.jpg

     Read this account and see if this guy doesn't think reducing throttle allowed him to SUSTAIN better low-speed turns...

     Or read this account and see what happens when the guy, by his own admission, had his throttle "wide-open"...:

     http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4716/jjohnsononfw190.jpg


     Besides, this is just silly: By pulling back on the stick you are ALSO pulling back on the top prop disc half: Explain to me how one can be done without the other...

     And to pull back on those thousands of pounds of thrust you are using the wing's lift as a pivot... Explain to me how there is a way around THAT...

     And to move the top prop disc half back by far less than one mm (by any amount in fact) you have to beat ALL of the thrust there: A 200 lbs weight supported by a rope, this weight being lifted by 100 lbs of force, will still leave 100 lbs of tension in that rope...

     Yes a Spitfire at full power HAS a heavier real-life wingloading than a FW-190A at partial power...

     But surely simmers can explain to me how there is a way around these real-life contingencies...

     Gaston

Offline Stoney

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #193 on: April 08, 2010, 02:39:07 PM »
   -Not just wing area and weight: That's the theoretical "reality". You can't reduce the THEORETICAL wingloading, but the real-life item yes:

     http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/339-hanseman-24may44.jpg

     Read this account and see if this guy doesn't think reducing throttle allowed him to SUSTAIN better low-speed turns...

     Or read this account and see what happens when the guy, by his own admission, had his throttle "wide-open"...:

     http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4716/jjohnsononfw190.jpg


     Besides, this is just silly: By pulling back on the stick you are ALSO pulling back on the top prop disc half: Explain to me how one can be done without the other...

     And to pull back on those thousands of pounds of thrust you are using the wing's lift as a pivot... Explain to me how there is a way around THAT...

     And to move the top prop disc half back by far less than one mm (by any amount in fact) you have to beat ALL of the thrust there: A 200 lbs weight supported by a rope, this weight being lifted by 100 lbs of force, will still leave 100 lbs of tension in that rope...

     Yes a Spitfire at full power HAS a heavier real-life wingloading than a FW-190A at partial power...

     But surely simmers can explain to me how there is a way around these real-life contingencies...

     Gaston

Impossible to argue with that logic... 
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline Baumer

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #194 on: April 08, 2010, 02:39:26 PM »

HTC Please show the blue planes some love!
F4F-4, FM2, SBD-5, TBM-3