Author Topic: 190A5 vs 190A8  (Read 65389 times)

Offline pervert

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #600 on: May 07, 2010, 06:59:46 AM »
Marseille was MIA.

Marseille was killed in an accident while bailing out of a 109 g2 with engine trouble that was non combat related. Marseille = Aces High style uber flying in real life  :devil he retired unbeaten  :D

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #601 on: May 07, 2010, 07:34:24 AM »
Marseille was killed in an accident while bailing out of a 109 g2 with engine trouble that was non combat related. Marseille = Aces High style uber flying in real life  :devil he retired unbeaten  :D

Yes, you're correct. The 109G-2 caught on fire due to an oil leak whose root cause appears to have been some broken spur gear teeth. However, recall that my statement was that the 109 was highly vulnerable, even in the hands of an expert pilot. This still appears to be true - though I was definitely in need of corrrection on the MIA biz. In the course of readin gabout Marseille, I also ventured across the deaths of two of his kameraden, Steinhausen and Stahlschmidt, both aces (34 and 59 victories) and members of his staffel, who preceded him in death by mere days. Both of these were victims of RAF Hurris and Spits.  

This raises another question, though, and one I've wondered about for some time. The 109, given its hub cannon, must have had a geared hub, yes? I mean, the DB's crank had to have been offset from the barrel of the kanone, right?

« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 07:43:00 AM by PJ_Godzilla »
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Offline Lusche

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #602 on: May 07, 2010, 07:40:25 AM »
This raises another question, though, and one I've wondered about for some time. The 109, given its hub cannon, must have had a geared hub, yes? I mean, the DB's crank had to have been offset from the barrel of the kanone, right?


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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #603 on: May 07, 2010, 07:42:15 AM »

Sectional view of a DB 601:

(Image removed from quote.)

Then I stand corrected again... it's a geared output shaft - not a geared hub.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #604 on: May 07, 2010, 09:24:01 AM »
The greatest percentage of Marsielles claims were P-40s.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #605 on: May 07, 2010, 11:32:43 AM »
The greatest percentage of Marsielles claims were P-40s.

Yes, and bad talk goin' round town said papa had three outside children and another wife - and that ai'nt right.

No, it's true. I've also read he was a ball-hoggin' hotdog whose command style crippled his staffel and appeared t odo so to feed him kills. But then, flipside, I've read contemporary pilots wh said he was the best shot in the Luftwaffe.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Angus

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #606 on: May 07, 2010, 03:31:00 PM »
Here is one for Hitech, and Gaston :D

Gunther Rall told me personally that he considered Marseille to have been the best shot of the LW in WW2.
Some years later, I was spending some time /A humbl lunch and some visit) with an ex LW wing-commander, who worked with the "old guns" when they were with NATO. That would include Rall, Krupinsky, even Galland, Steinhoff, and a number worth drooling over.
His opinion was that Rall was the very best shot, since he was making his hits under very high G's, and under deflection ,etc.
Marseille, (Rall told me he had killed 17 Spitfires in a day) had a special set-up, - He (being a superb pilot and an excellent shot) had the team-mates covering him while he would do stall turns to get a dead shot from no distance. Like a trap to confident Spitfire pilots who believed they could turn inside 109's. In that case, Marseille would throttle down and then up again in order to get the 109 into a complete slotted bat-turn, getting a killing shot from practically point blank, with some convergience, and he would hit the fuselage and often kill the engine or pilot. Then, he had his mates covering him, so he go most of the squadron's kills personally.
The 17 Spitfire story never held water, nor did the 17 kill story. He may have hit 17 times an aircraft that day, which is already a remarkable achievent.
He did not get away like unscratched....there is a famous picture of Marseille showing a bullet hole in his fuselage some short distance in front of the cockpit. That means a split-second away from a bullet in your gut.



It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #607 on: May 07, 2010, 04:23:40 PM »
17 Spitfires????

Marseille was credited with 17 kills in three separate sorties over El Taqua, Alam Halfa and Deir el Raghat.

His adversaries on the early morning missions were Mk II Hurricanes (No. 1 Squadron SAAF and No. 238 Squadron RAF) and Mk V Spitfires (No. 92 Squadron RAF). One South African, Lieutenant Bailey, was injured in a crash landing, while Major P. R. C. Metelerkamp managed to fly his heavily damaged fighter back to his base. Flying Officer I. W. (Ian) Matthews of 238 Sqn was killed.[114] Pilot Officer Bradley-Smith (92 Sqn) bailed out of his burning Spitfire VC BR474. Bradley-Smith was uninjured.

Among Marseille’s adversaries during the midday combat were Mk IIB Tomahawks of No. 5 Squadron SAAF and Mk I Kittyhawks of No. 2 Squadron SAAF, to which was attached pilots of the 57th Fighter Group USAAF.[Notes 10] Lieutenant Stearns was wounded in the crash-landing of his P-40, Lieutenant Morrison (Kittyhawk I, ET575) remains missing in action, Lieutenant W. L. O. Moon bailed out of his Kittyhawk I, EV366 and was uninjured. Lieutenant G. B. Jack also remains missing in action.

Marseille's evening opponents were Hurricanes from No. 213 Squadron RAF, of which Marseille claimed five shot down.[116] Marseille's 117th official victory was over a Hurricane Mk IIB, BN273. The pilot, Sergeant A. Garrod, bailed out uninjured.

Offline Scherf

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #608 on: May 07, 2010, 04:54:53 PM »
Yes, and bad talk goin' round town said papa had three outside children and another wife - and that ai'nt right.


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to tell me the truuuuuuu-uuuu-uuu-uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuth.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Die Hard

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #609 on: May 07, 2010, 09:55:01 PM »
Marseilles was a great pilot and warrior. Perhaps the best of them all in single combat. However, the focus on personal achievement and glory was detrimental to the Luftwaffe as a fighting force. Some Luftwaffe squadrons were reduced to one or a few aces, with the rest of the pilots just trying to protect their champions. It was a very inefficient way to use a whole squadron of fighters, and when these aces fell it was devastating to morale.
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Offline Charge

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #610 on: May 08, 2010, 09:15:34 AM »
"However, the focus on personal achievement and glory was detrimental to the Luftwaffe as a fighting force. Some Luftwaffe squadrons were reduced to one or a few aces, with the rest of the pilots just trying to protect their champions. It was a very inefficient way to use a whole squadron of fighters, and when these aces fell it was devastating to morale."

DieHard, I think that is a quite rough generalization, and as such it is generally incorrect.

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Offline Wagger

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #611 on: May 09, 2010, 01:22:12 AM »
Pardon the confusion but?  Isn't this the 190A5 vs 190A8 thread?

Offline Angus

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #612 on: May 10, 2010, 05:10:43 AM »
17 Spitfires????

Marseille was credited with 17 kills in three separate sorties over El Taqua, Alam Halfa and Deir el Raghat.

His adversaries on the early morning missions were Mk II Hurricanes (No. 1 Squadron SAAF and No. 238 Squadron RAF) and Mk V Spitfires (No. 92 Squadron RAF). One South African, Lieutenant Bailey, was injured in a crash landing, while Major P. R. C. Metelerkamp managed to fly his heavily damaged fighter back to his base. Flying Officer I. W. (Ian) Matthews of 238 Sqn was killed.[114] Pilot Officer Bradley-Smith (92 Sqn) bailed out of his burning Spitfire VC BR474. Bradley-Smith was uninjured.

Among Marseille’s adversaries during the midday combat were Mk IIB Tomahawks of No. 5 Squadron SAAF and Mk I Kittyhawks of No. 2 Squadron SAAF, to which was attached pilots of the 57th Fighter Group USAAF.[Notes 10] Lieutenant Stearns was wounded in the crash-landing of his P-40, Lieutenant Morrison (Kittyhawk I, ET575) remains missing in action, Lieutenant W. L. O. Moon bailed out of his Kittyhawk I, EV366 and was uninjured. Lieutenant G. B. Jack also remains missing in action.

Marseille's evening opponents were Hurricanes from No. 213 Squadron RAF, of which Marseille claimed five shot down.[116] Marseille's 117th official victory was over a Hurricane Mk IIB, BN273. The pilot, Sergeant A. Garrod, bailed out uninjured.

So....that makes 5 kills from these engagements as confirmed? And did Marseille then get them all?
Milo, this was a good cover of events. Would have taken me days of work :)
Brings me to a point though. I have looked quite a lot into LW claims and registered losses, Then RAF claims and registered losses. Apart from both being a bit off in the claim department, , the losses are hard to register. In that case especially the LW, which is understandable, for they were on the loosing side, and a lot of documents were destroyed. The torture is finding proper loss records to match up to the numbers of an airforce that mostly got destroyed.
Anyway, a challenge.
Milo. I have lost your email address. Could you ping me on info@gardsauki.is?
Thanks ;)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 05:20:50 AM by Angus »
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bubbajj

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #613 on: May 21, 2010, 07:09:13 PM »
Maybe a bid of a throwback to this whole conversation, but I tend to agree with Thorsim that our 190 seems to be less capable than it was anecdotally. In a mere 5 minutes of web surfing I found this. Nowhere does it say that the 190 was an inferior handler but, quite to the contrary, accounts seemed to give it performance superior to the spits until the advent of the IX and one writer actually said in no uncertain terms that it OUT TURNED the 109. It just seems like the 190 we have is nowhere near as capable as the 190 accounted for in WWII.

(4) Alan Deere, Nine Lives (1959)

Savagely I hauled my reluctant Spitfire around to meet this new attack and the next moment I was engulfed in enemy fighters-above, below and on both sides, they crowded in on my section. Ahead and above, I caught a glimpse of a FW 190 as it poured cannon shells into the belly of an unsuspecting Spitfire. For a brief second the Spitfire seemed to stop in mid-air, and the next instant it folded inwards and broke in two, the two pieces plummeting earthwards; a terrifying demonstration of the punch of the FW 190s, four cannons and two machine-guns.

I twisted and turned my aircraft in an endeavour to avoid being jumped and at the same time to get myself into a favourable position for attack. Never had I seen the Huns stay and fight it out as these Focke-Wulf pilots were doing. In Messerschmitt 109s the Hun tactics had always followed the same pattern-a quick pass and away, sound tactics against Spitfires with their superior turning circle. Not so these FW 190 pilots, they were full of confidence.



(3) After the war the British fighter pilot Johnnie Johnson wrote about the merits of the Focke-Wulf 190.
The Focke-Wulf 190 was undoubtedly, the best German fighter. We were puzzled by the unfamiliar silhouette, for these new German fighters seemed to have squarer wingtips and more tapering fuselages than the Messerschmitts we usually encountered. We saw that the new aircraft had radial engines and a mixed armament of cannons and machine-guns, all firing from wing positions.
Whatever these strange fighters were, they gave us a hard time of it. They seemed to be faster in a zoom climb than the Me 109, and far more stable in a vertical dive. They also turned better. The first time we saw them we all had our work cut out to shake them off, and we lost several pilots.
Back at our fighter base and encouraged by our enthusiastic Intelligence Officers, we drew sketches and side views of this strange new aeroplane. We were all agreed that it was superior to the Me 109f and completely outclassed our Spitfire Vs. Our sketches disappeared into mysterious Intelligence channels and we heard no more of the matter,. But from then on, fighter pilots continually reported increasing numbers of these outstanding fighters over northern Franc


From Vectorsite.com

The V1 machine originally featured a three-bladed variable-pitch propeller with an oversized prop spinner. The spinner fitted flush to the edge of the engine cowling for streamlining, with a central duct surrounding a ten-bladed fan for airflow, but this configuration didn't cool the rear set of cylinders very well. The oversized prop spinner was replaced by a conventional prop spinner, which didn't do much to eliminate the overheating problem but demonstrated no real reduction in performance, and so was retained for all following FW-190s.

The cockpit overheating remained a serious nuisance. Temperatures reached up to 55 degrees Celsius (130 degrees Fahrenheit) and Sander complained that sitting in the cockpit "was like having your feet in a fire!" Unfortunately, the canopy couldn't be opened in flight to cool off, since the open canopy created disruptive turbulence over the tail.

The difficulties did not disguise the fact that the new fighter was fast, powerful, and agile. Sander demonstrated the V1 at the Luftwaffe flight test center at Rechlin in early July 1939, including a show for Reichsmarshal Hermann Goering, who was so enthusiastic that he endorsed mass production of the type, saying it should be "turned out like hot rolls!" Luftwaffe test pilots were also enthusiastic about the new machine, stating that it handled better than the Bf-109.


* The British Royal Air Force (RAF) first encountered the FW-190A-1 in air combat over the coast of northern France in September 1941. The new German aircraft was more than a match for the Spitfire V. British intelligence was initially puzzled by reports of the new German fighter, with some speculation that the type might actually be a captured French Curtiss Hawk 75 or the Bloch 151 fighter, both of which were radial-engine machines with a vague resemblance to the FW-190. By the end of the year, the British had no doubt that they were up against something much more formidable.


* In February 1942, FW-190s of Adolf Galland's JG-26 squadron escorted the battle cruisers SCHARNHORST and GNEISENAU on their famous "Channel Dash" from France to the Baltic, with the Focke-Wulf fending off attacks by RAF Hurricanes and Spitfires, and shooting down all of a flight of six Swordfish torpedo-bombers that courageously pressed their attack despite the odds.


Many Luftwaffe pilots racked up large numbers of kills, particularly on the Eastern front. The Luftwaffe's fourth highest scoring pilot, Oberleutnant Otto Kittle, who scored 267 victories, got 220 of his kills in FW-190A-4s and A-5s, making him the high scorer with the type. Other German aces, including Walter Nowotny, Heinz Baer, Herman Graf, and Kurt Buhligen, all scored over a hundred kills in the FW-190.



From Aviation-history.com

     The Focke-Wulf was not only faster but its superior handling and faster roll rate gave it an edge in the hands of even less experienced pilots.




Just seems like the 190 we have is NOWHERE near what was faced by the allies.

Offline Karnak

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #614 on: May 21, 2010, 07:29:34 PM »
At the same time, there is a quote from a 60-70ish kill Fw190 aces complaining that the Spitfire IX did everything better than the Fw190 other than roll.

In AH the Fw190A-5 will dominate the Spitfire Mk V.

As to the turning, I just don't see how the physics work for the Fw190 to out turn a Spitfire.  The numbers just don't work for it.
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