Question on the Tiger's armor

[jay]

are u a knight  and HVAP is useless outside of 20 range

[cegull]

I have never seen any mention of hit cells on the tanks in this game or how the programer could compensate for long range shots when the target is just a tiny dot.  If the target is close then its possible to hit different hit cells but when its just a dot you hit the dot but not individual hit cells.  2400 yards (1 1/2miles) is a rather ridiculous distance to kill a tank at anyway in real life.  The commentary from some of the old timer tank crews on the history channel and elsewhere indicated that Panzer (high velocity 75mm) and Tiger (88mm) commanders liked to close within a 1000 meters before firing.  Allied tankers said that the Germans would usually fire at about a half mile (800m) and that allied rounds just bounced off them at that range.  Most of the allied tankers said they had to get within 400m to have a chance at all.  Anyway I don't think that there are individual hit cells for all the different thicknesses of armor in this or other online games.   I would advise reading as much history as possible.  I recall one tiger in the African campaign that was hit over 100 times according to a crew member.  They drove the tank for something like 15 miles before it finally seized up. 

[toadkill]

There, in fact, are different hit zones on all vehicles in the game. If you kill tanks with a Hurricane IId, you know that there are very specific areas you have to hit to kill specific vehicles. Just like in ACM, in this game kill ranges are much much longer than IRL, aiming is much easier.

[M1A1]

I think that we just have to get used to the fact that no matter how "accurate" a game may be there are always going to be sacrifices made to the playability side. Having sat in a T-34/76 and peered through the optics I find it hard to beleive that you could hit much less see a tiger at 2400 meters. In a Sherman most models have a fixed power sight which required them to close to well within 500 meters to ensure a hit. There are way to many factors to take into account to get an accurate firing solution for just a game. So hits that kill at that distance while not the norm in REAL life are far more common in games.I can tell you from experience that on the GAS sight in an M1 that it is almost impposible to pick out a specific area to aim for on a target out side of about 1500 meters. It can be done but higly unlikely. Most engagements in WWII started at around 1000m but finished in a dog fight of around 300meters due to allied tanks having to close to that distance to get penetration even with AP and HVAP on tigers and Panthers and then succes was minimal unless the shots were to the flanks or rear unless able to attack from higher elevation and hitting from above where the armor on any tank is minimal at best. In the end we have to take the good with the bad and realize that it's a game and will never be the real thing...To be clear the Gas sight is the Auxillary sight coaxially mounted on the main gun in the abrams which is a fixed power scope pretty much as would be found in most vehicals of WWII era..

[R 105]

 I believe it was Hans Bolter a Tiger ace with over 140 kills in a Tiger. His Tiger in a two day close range fight with British tanks. Destroyed 29 tanks in one day while taking 261 hits on his tank. Only after a track came off of his Tiger did he and his crew have to abandon the Tiger. Read Tiger aces and you will see that type of licking and keep of ticking Tiger toughness was common. Now that is a Tiger worth the perk points. I never use Tigers any more because they are near worthless except for bombs from planes. You are better off using the M-4. The armor seems about as good as the Tiger now. The turret moves faster and the gun is just as deadly. I would rather see the Hans Bolter Tiger type damage model myself.

[ghi]

I captured this 2 Weeks ago ,General Patton Memorial Museum,Chiriaco Summit,California, interesting place to see for GVers. I love the statue ,Patton walking his dog over panzer tracks. They have this Sherman tank, i was surprised how small it is, i wouldn't fit in it, looks like was hit by some small caliber rounds, i noticed also the default skin in AH looks very similar with real paint color.

[speak]

It is a fact that the tiger was feared by both sides, especially at long ranges do to the highly potent 88 as its main gun.  Tiger commanders have spoken highly about the protection they were provided by this tank.  In the game, it does seem relatively weak as a tank.  It is slow in speed and turret movement.   The armor hardness should be beefed up, as the sherman and t-34 were no match for the tiger at long range; no matter how good of a shot.  Proof is in the pudding they say, read about it.   

Bring the King Tiger IV and the HE-111 for petes sake.  Spent how long developing WW1 and now only 20 people choose to fly?   I say spend more time molding the WW2 arenas and provide more rides for everyone. 

<S>

[THRASH99]

It is a fact that the tiger was feared by both sides, especially at long ranges do to the highly potent 88 as its main gun.  Tiger commanders have spoken highly about the protection they were provided by this tank.  In the game, it does seem relatively weak as a tank.  It is slow in speed and turret movement.   The armor hardness should be beefed up, as the sherman and t-34 were no match for the tiger at long range; no matter how good of a shot.  Proof is in the pudding they say, read about it.   

Bring the King Tiger IV and the HE-111 for petes sake.  Spent how long developing WW1 and now only 20 people choose to fly?   I say spend more time molding the WW2 arenas and provide more rides for everyone. 

<S>

Amen to that speak, that's exactly my point there. <<S>> 

[Yarbles]

I look forward to your completely accurate in every way game.  I hope it doesn't take you too long to design and get it into production.  How could those bastages at HTC have gotten things so wrong!

To be fair I constantly hear people in game complaining that this or that isnt right in terms of this plane is faster than that and it shouldn't be this tank killed that tank when it shouldn't.

My experience is that everything is pretty much modelled as it should be. A plane or tank may be expected to shine in a praticular area but not in reality in every  circumstance and every time. If you use the vehicle or plane enough and do a bit of research I have nearly allways found the modelled behaviour is close to our best guess of the reality. I fly with A squad and people still cry about the behaviour of their chosen ride when they die unexpectedly. The rest of the squad can 9 x out of 10 give a pausable explanation and then it is up to the individual whether they want to be "a man" about it.

I have been playing allot lately and can't think of anything which is incorrectly modelled. I have no bias one way or the other that's just how it is imho.,

[Rino]

     Seems like this whole topic is just a bad case of  .  Tigers are not invulnerable, if you don't want to
risk your perks <only reason I can think of for this thread> don't up one.

[RTHolmes]

if you spend some time trying different guns against the offline tiger, the armour seems to be modelled almost exactly as the diagram above. Ive spent alot of time shooting the t34 and tiger offline to find the softest parts to aim for and comparing different guns, and the results are very consistent. this doesnt always seem to be the case online though...

[321BAR]

(Image removed from quote.)

if you spend some time trying different guns against the offline tiger, the armour seems to be modelled almost exactly as the diagram above. Ive spent alot of time shooting the t34 and tiger offline to find the softest parts to aim for and comparing different guns, and the results are very consistent. this doesnt always seem to be the case online though...

this may be due to different connectivities of the players? in 1st person shooters people live due to lag or die due to lag. could it be the same here? or am i way off base here?

[Serenity]

It is a fact that the tiger was feared by both sides, especially at long ranges do to the highly potent 88 as its main gun.  Tiger commanders have spoken highly about the protection they were provided by this tank.  In the game, it does seem relatively weak as a tank.  It is slow in speed and turret movement.   The armor hardness should be beefed up, as the sherman and t-34 were no match for the tiger at long range; no matter how good of a shot.  Proof is in the pudding they say, read about it.   

Bring the King Tiger IV and the HE-111 for petes sake.  Spent how long developing WW1 and now only 20 people choose to fly?   I say spend more time molding the WW2 arenas and provide more rides for everyone. 

<S>

ROFL. Let me start with this: I would bet dollars to donuts the Sherman kills your referring to ingame, arent M4A1,2,or3 Shermans, etc. You're being killed by a firefly, which is specifically a TANK KILLER. Why didn't we hear about Tigers being shredded like this in real life? There just plane weren't as many Fireflys as Shermans. The T-34s you hear of being pathetic? the old 76s. You're not getting killed by a 76 in game, you're getting killed by an 85. BIG difference in armament. You're consistently quoting statements of people "who were THERE man!" but you're forgetting several key facts: First, just because you were there doesn't mean you have any clue what happened. Combat is VERY chaotic and I find it hard to believe anything said by someone about something that happened in a firefight 60 years after the fact can be taken as fact itself. Eye-witnesses are not as useful as sources when looking for technical information as you may think. And you cannot compare apples to oranges like you are trying to do, intermingling T-34/76s and T-34/85s, M4A3s and Fireflys.

[humble]

A lot of what you read is slanted and gives certain misconceptions. IRL the Tiger was deployed in a predominantly defensive role normally in somewhat open terrain or at a natural choke point. Further the Tiger was normally screened with supporting infantry and AT guns allowing the Tiger units leader tremendous flexibility with regard to timing and tactics. The Tiger suffered similar attrition when used in any offensive role or caught in transition as all tanks did. During defensive actions in the aftermath of St Vith  M-10s destroyed 17 German tanks including multiple Panthers and Tigers with no losses. A single T34/85 attacked a column of tanks caught in retreat and took out a number of Tigers and Panthers in the confusion before withdrawing. There is a famous encounter between a 76mm sherman and a panther at the arc de triumph thats been written up numerous times. The Panther fired 1st and missed and the commander or gunner remembered the plaza was 900 meters (or something similar) and ranged the Panther at just under that and took him out 1st shot face to face.

The reality is that the Tiger is the premier "stand off" weapon in the game with the firefly 2nd, the moment you elect to close with the enemy in a Tiger your going against the design concept...

[321BAR]

ROFL. Let me start with this: I would bet dollars to donuts the Sherman kills your referring to ingame, arent M4A1,2,or3 Shermans, etc. You're being killed by a firefly, which is specifically a TANK KILLER. Why didn't we hear about Tigers being shredded like this in real life? There just plane weren't as many Fireflys as Shermans. The T-34s you hear of being pathetic? the old 76s. You're not getting killed by a 76 in game, you're getting killed by an 85. BIG difference in armament. You're consistently quoting statements of people "who were THERE man!" but you're forgetting several key facts: First, just because you were there doesn't mean you have any clue what happened. Combat is VERY chaotic and I find it hard to believe anything said by someone about something that happened in a firefight 60 years after the fact can be taken as fact itself. Eye-witnesses are not as useful as sources when looking for technical information as you may think. And you cannot compare apples to oranges like you are trying to do, intermingling T-34/76s and T-34/85s, M4A3s and Fireflys.

serenity, look at the date you took that quote from    and also to add to this. it seems that tigers only get killed by the T-34/76 and /85 and the M4A3/76 and /75 if its less than 2500 yards. i have never been killed by any of these at a longer distance. Tigers even real ones were meant to stay away from the enemy and shoot them before they got close. yes in AHI there were just tigers and pnzrs but even then you still needed to stay off at a small distance in order to keep momentum up in an assault upon the enemy. also... LIKE ALWAYS, study your GV tactics and learn to use your best armor and the terrain around you to your advantage. Trees give cover for you AND the enemy...and also if you are engine on and you hear the enemy's engine still, they are in killing range on your freaking tiger!!! that means kill them before they get you!