Author Topic: BnZ problems  (Read 2956 times)

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2010, 02:48:52 AM »
No one mentioned attacking on the way up? Try diving behind and lower than your target, then gently level out or go into a shallow climb up his ass. You will have a lot of speed and close very fast on his low 6. He on the other hand will hard time tracking you and time his break because he cannot see well to low-6.

One of two things will happen:
1. He didn't notice you yet - and never will until you hit him.
2. He will have to roll his plane to keep watching you, giving you ample warning to which side he is about to break. Very likely he will loose nerve and break too soon giving you 90 degree full top area deflection shot.

After you take your shot, increase the zoom climb angle, watch and decide if to keep pressure on or setup a new pass.
Requires better timing and better closure-speed judgment then attacking from above , but a hell of a lot more effective and saves energy.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Ghosth

  • AH Training Corps (retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8497
      • http://332nd.org
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2010, 07:01:49 AM »
Don't dive AT him, head for behind below him, get into his blind spot. Close the distance, then attack going back up.

For one it will help you control your closure speed. For another if you miss your not in front of his guns.
And while it won't fool them all, a significant portion will lose track of you in their blind spot.
Giving you that chance to make a perfect pass.

I see Bozon beat me too it. :)

Offline DEECONX

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1502
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2010, 02:35:56 PM »
Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher  :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem  :uhoh

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2010, 02:43:42 PM »
Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher  :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem  :uhoh

If wingman was co-alt with you (or even higher), you should eliminate him/her firstly. Part of SA is prioritizing the targets (threats).

Offline DEECONX

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1502
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2010, 02:45:24 PM »
If wingman was co-alt with you (or even higher), you should eliminate him/her firstly. Part of SA is prioritizing the targets (threats).

That is what I usually try to do, but the first guy ends up climbing while Im fighting off the wingman, now I have two badguys co-alt   :uhoh

EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2010, 02:51:14 PM »
That is what I usually try to do, but the first guy ends up climbing while Im fighting off the wingman, now I have two badguys co-alt   :uhoh

EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there

If you want to fight two at the time you need some sort of an advantage.
Either superior plane, position or superior skill, because If all things equal, two guys should beat the single one every time. 

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2010, 02:55:24 PM »
Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher  :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem  :uhoh

Being one-man squad of my own I have to say: Wingmen rarely show up that "sudden". It's not that there is a clear sky when you point your nose down and suddenly there is some above you when you zoom up again. You should constantly scan the skies around you, and before you commit yourself to that one enemy you have to check & decide if any of those cons around you will be a potential thread to you.
And the more experience you get, the easier this task will be. Scan the sky, use the map and some common sense (if your at 5k and about to dive on someone at 1k, and you are halfway between 2 bases and there's a fat red darbar in sector, the probability is very high there will be a lot of higher cons around pretty soon)

EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there

And they may or may not be right with that. A player with less experience, a player tends to disengage/open the gap too much, because he just can't judge ditsnaces, speeds & E states.
Howver, the last time I was accused being a runner was when I opened the distance from 600 to 800 yds in my Tempest being bounced by a Yak  :lol
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 02:58:34 PM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2010, 09:06:52 PM »
Thanx guys! But, what if Im attacking, a guy, the first pass was a miss, and as Im climbing out to get and idea of how my next pass should be, his wingman shows up at co-alt or higher  :confused: Now what? I know having a wingman will help this problem, but being a one man squad atm Im forced to find an answer to this problem  :uhoh

All a bunch of good advice here...

Just to give a different opinion on one point- I don't like to dive below my opponent and zoom back up on him for the shot.  I do it when the situation calls for it (or I mess up), but given my choice, I'll never, ever, dive below if I'm BnZing.

There are a few reasons for that-

One, IMO it's a waste of energy (E).  I'm burning some part of my E-advantage just zooming back up to his altitude.  Now, my E-advantage is only useful to me if I can translate it into a kill-shot.  "Wasting" or (maybe a better description) "trading" E for that shot is what it's all about...  If I can make my kill on that pass, great!  But if I don't?  I've wasted part of my advantage...  I'll be co-E sooner as a result...  Personally, I use my opponents altitude as an imaginary "hard deck", and don't go below him if I'm in BnZ mode.

Two, that low-6 "blind spot", is a "good" pilot's most vulnerable spot.  As a result, he's watching it (that spot) closer than any other.  He flat-out expects you to try to get there (and knows that you want to, so it'll be easy to convince to go there), so good luck getting there undetected...  And if you do get there, watch out!  He's got a plan for that...  Now, couple this with reason number one...  The "good" pilot thinks you'll try to attack from his low 6, is watching you (or even "lets" you get there) and you burn excess E to get there.  See where this is going?  For that matter, he knows where you'll go after you come up on his six and miss the shot...  Lemme guess, you'll zoom back up, right?  Add predictability to the list of problems you have.

I just plain assume my opponent sees me when I dive in.  If he doesn't, that's sweet- an easy kill.  If he does, and maneuvers, I'm ready for that, and I don't want/need to burn extra E to find that out.  Maintaining my advantage allows me to maintain pressure long enough to force him into a bad position.

Maintain a position nearly directly over his head, and bounce on him like Saxman's diagram shows.  When you zoom out, watch him and don't allow him to get out to the side (minimize horizontal separation).  Don't zoom out too far- 2K max.  A "heavy" 1.5K may be better.  Then get back in there and make him turn again.  Zoom back out.  Don't give him time to think too much.  Don't force a shot on him, but be ready to shoot if an opportunity presents itself.  Don't miss.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline DEECONX

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1502
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2010, 09:34:15 PM »
Thanx mntman!

Well, been using all the advice here, and it really has helped! Thanx everyone! Today, I came in on  a low 190, and was able to get a good deflection shot off on him using the tactic from Saxman's picture. I took out something that mad him smoke, and knocked out his engine  :D Then low and behold, as I was climbingout, another 190, comes zooming in co-alt while Im trying to buy back my E from the first attack. We merge a few times, he throws a couple popshots my way, I give a lil rudder and "side step" out the way, then a friendly who I didn't know was above us came down on the 190 pretty good. I rtb'ed, refueled and headed back to claim a second kill doing the same thing, and a couple of assists. All in all, I have improved just on what you guys have said and shown!   

 :salute

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2010, 09:56:31 PM »
That is what I usually try to do, but the first guy ends up climbing while Im fighting off the wingman, now I have two badguys co-alt   :uhoh

EDIT:: this is when I usually WEP up dive out and put distance between me and them, then the runstang is thrown out there

Fighting 2v1 is really a completely different topic.  But since it's your thread, and you're the one asking...

In a 2v1, you need to capitalize on weakness, concentrate on the biggest threat, but not forget about the other guy either.  Apply what pressure you can, when you can.  Shoot when you can (and don't miss), but don't force the shot or commit to one for too long.  Keep an eye on the guy in front of you, but pay close attention to the one behind you.

Also, use all of the information you have at your disposal.

A few tips-

Don't let the 2v1 turn into a 3v1.  2v1's are hard.  3v1's are really, really, really hard.  That means you need to separate the fight from the crowd.  Use the height you have to drag the fight to a "private" area, or possibly towards help.

Put them together.  Get them into approximately the same area in relation to you.  Both behind you and to the right, for example.  Don't try to fight them if they're separated widely, if you can help it.  That allows you to at least begin the fight as if it was a 1v1.

Don't let them dictate when the fight starts, exactly.  Are they going to catch you, and force you to turn?  If so, realize it, and reverse on them when you're ready- don't wait until they're so close you have no choice.

Make them think you want to run away and not fight.  That seems to help convince them to keep they're speed up, which will give you a quick turning advantage (brief, though).

Make your shots count, and end the fight as quickly as possible.  Mentally, I think it helps you, and hurts "them", if you can quickly kill one of them (even beyond the fact that it's now 1v1).  Make it look easy, don't make it look lucky...  What's the second guy thinking at that point?  If you can get an edge that way, that's good.  It may be 1v1 now, but it sure isn't starting out as an "even", equal position 1v1...

When you get into it, watch for the dangerous one, and avoid him.  Also watch for one to give you a shot.  Take it if you can, but if not, forget it and dodge the other guy.

Turn when you need to, and dodge when you need to, but don't overdo it.  It burns E.  Fly as smooth as you can, and make your moves/dodges subtle when you can.  I always assume that even though they're both a team, they're also competing for my scalp.  That makes them likely to burn E with tight turns and quick reversals.

Here's an example of some of that.  In this film you don't see three key bits of information that one pilot gave me.  The P47M made a pass on me while I was in a fight about 3 minutes before this film started.  In doing so, he missed me on what I thought was an easy shot.  He also pulled hard and awkwardly for that shot, burning E, and then zoomed out a long way (3.5-4K) before reversing back.  Those things gave me an immediate "read" on him, but I was low, slow, and covered in red.  I had to extend.  In doing so (with him still following), I picked up another P47.  

So I drag them out.  This keeps it a 2v1, puts them close to each other behind me, and makes them think I want to run away.  A friendly GV asks me to turn back to him for help.  I'm confident though (sometimes suicidally, hehe)(plus, he called me minuteman...).  I then reverse before they catch me (although the second one was shooting at me from 1k out (which gave me some info on him, too).  

As I turn back, I see the more "unknown" pilot (P47-25) will miss his shot, and the M looks like he'll give me a shot so I go after him.  I quickly realize I won't catch him, and can't afford to hang myself out.  I'm pretty sure the -25 is closing from my right, and I'm scared.  

I'm going to use some of my info here...  How far will the M probably zoom?  If he doesn't, and turns back quickly, how likely is he to perfectly execute the reversal, and how likely to hit me with that shot?  My info from earlier leads me to believe that the -25 is the biggest threat right now, and he's closing in...  So I take a quick shot on the M (a little damage on him is better than none, even a few pings may lead him to be a bit hesitant or intimidated, hopefully) and pull off to look for the -25.

Guess what?  I screwed up...  I misread the P47M's E-state...  The M is quickly around for a shot- but misses.  What info does this give me?  Info on his E-state (he's not holding a ton), his frame of mind (he's being aggressive, burning E for the shot), he missed again (when I was extremely vulnerable) and he's now out of position for a few seconds following his shot (I can afford to spend a few seconds on the -25...).  Take the shot when I can (don't miss!), but don't spend too long on it (be ready to reacquire the M).  The 25 goes down, and the M is now vulnerable, as long as I pressure him enough that he can't straighten out and extend (I can't give him any "room", and I can't let the fight drag out too long).

In addition to all that, luck helps a whole lot!  You never really know what's in store, so hopefully they'll miss a shot or two.  You can't afford to miss (or get hit), though.

http://www.4shared.com/file/252466927/b755b31f/Jugs_2v1_at_end_0808.html





« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 10:11:13 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline SPKmes

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3270
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2010, 10:17:36 PM »

Here's an example of some of that.  In this film you don't see three key bits of information that one pilot gave me.  The P47M made a pass on me while I was in a fight about 3 minutes before this film started.  In doing so, he missed me on what I thought was an easy shot.  He also pulled hard and awkwardly for that shot, burning E, and then zoomed out a long way (3.5-4K) before reversing back.  Those things gave me an immediate "read" on him, but I was low, slow, and covered in red.  I had to extend.  In doing so (with him still following), I picked up another P47. 

So I drag them out.  This keeps it a 2v1, puts them close to each other behind me, and makes them think I want to run away.  A friendly GV asks me to turn back to him for help.  I'm confident though (sometimes suicidally, hehe)(plus, he called me minuteman...).  I then reverse before they catch me (although the second one was shooting at me from 1k out (which gave me some info on him, too). 

As I turn back, I see the more "unknown" pilot (P47-25) will miss his shot, and the M looks like he'll give me a shot so I go after him.  I quickly realize I won't catch him, and can't afford to hang myself out.  I'm pretty sure the -25 is closing from my right, and I'm scared. 

I'm going to use some of my info here...  How far will the M probably zoom?  If he doesn't, and turns back quickly, how likely is he to perfectly execute the reversal, and how likely to hit me with that shot?  My info from earlier leads me to believe that the -25 is the biggest threat right now, and he's closing in...  So I take a quick shot on the M (a little damage on him is better than none, even a few pings may lead him to be a bit hesitant or intimidated, hopefully) and pull off to look for the -25.

Guess what?  I screwed up...  I misread the P47M's E-state...  The M is quickly around for a shot- but misses.  What info does this give me?  Info on his E-state (he's not holding a ton), his frame of mind (he's being aggressive, burning E for the shot), he missed again (when I was extremely vulnerable) and he's now out of position for a few seconds following his shot (I can afford to spend a few seconds on the -25...).  Take the shot when I can (don't miss!), but don't spend too long on it (be ready to reacquire the M).  The 25 goes down, and the M is now vulnerable, as long as I pressure him enough that he can't straighten out and extend (I can't give him any "room", and I can't let the fight drag out too long).

In addition to all that, luck helps a whole lot!  You never really know what's in store, so hopefully they'll miss a shot or two.  You can't afford to miss (or get hit), though.



Damn....... just the way that reads is exciting....

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2010, 12:25:34 PM »
Ok, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed aswell, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say Im the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill  :furious What do I need to do to get out of this one pass kill, and what do I need to do to get one pass kills? Also, if there are any trainers out there who can help out a poor pony pilot like myself, it'd be much appreciated  :pray

Hmmm I'd like to see a film or two of your BnZ execution.   Here's a couple of tips to add to your thoughts.

 Pilots tend to repeat their evasive maneuvers. Often I'll make a pass at a person with the sole intent of learning their tells. If they give me a shot I'll take it, but I'm paying just as much mind to what they do.  Often, a pilot will give away what his evasive is going to be, a tip of the wing, dropping flaps, maybe a nose up angle. All these things will give you an idea of which way he is going and allow you to  "cheat" that direction. If he fools you, no biggie. If you don't have a shot, go up and reset.  Keep an eye on him for the opportunity of a spiral rope(more on that in a minute).  As simple as a move as it is, a large proportion of the MA populace will gobble it up.

Learn to hit planes that you can't see. A lot of those guys using simple break turns are sheep for the slaughter. They may go under your nose as you pull for a shot but they are still quite killable. I get tons of kills where the bad guy is under my nose AND I have to pull past blackout for a sec to get my guns in front of him.  Get proficient at this and you will get more kills. Along with this,  you must know when you can pull for this shot and when you can't.  Pulling for a shot and missing is a waste of precious E.

Learn to spiral  rope. While the move itself is very simple, there's a complex dance going on there.   His E state, your E state... go up in such a way that even though you are faster, he isn't losing ground... maybe even closing. Adjust the spring of your spiral accordingly to keep him interested. Remember, he is going to be using more E as he tries to get his guns in front of you.  Learn the subtleties of hanging up there a golden extra second or two before you nose down. Combat trim off, flaps out, throttle closed, even opposite rudder to the way your nose wants to fall. Be careful you don't spin when you put throttle back in.

I could tell you much more but you've got enough to learn for now. :)
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline goxwerd

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2010, 11:52:38 PM »
i fly 51s and bish lmk if you want to duo up.  I am pretty bad but at least i can cover you while we learn.

Offline strong10

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 141
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2010, 04:32:01 PM »
OK, so I fly P51s and P47s mostly, so BnZ would be the logical choice of attack correct? Well, Everytime I dive on a guy, he breaks at the last second, If I turn with him, I loose E, and He gains the upper hand, If I climb out and circle back, he has climbed as well, making him harder to dive on. What do I need to do to kill this pilot? Also, say I'm the one getting dived on, I try breaking hard left/right like the before mentioned does to get away from me, but somehow he maneuvers with me, and gets a one pass kill 

Another thing worth mentioning is while you are perfecting your BnZ skill, choose your targets wisely.  The first red guy you come across shouldn't necessarily be your first target.  You may want to attack the planes that are giving you the least amount of trouble and continue past the planes that keep killing you.  If a guy who you are attacking seems like a very good pilot, disengage and move on to an easier one.  This make your sortie last longer. 

Hint:  When attacking more than one plane, plan your attack to allow the zoom portion of the pass aimed towards friendlies or a friendly base.  This gives you an escape route. 
Hint:  Don't try and outclimb 109's and spit16's if you find yourself on the defensive, better to use your flat speed.   :airplane:
   
As your skills improve, you can start attacking anything and everybody with blind abandon.   :joystick:

   

Offline kingcobradude

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
Re: BnZ problems
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2010, 02:16:29 AM »
try to drag them to your allies. sometimes when I approach targets in b25h, and theres a furball ahead, Ill get radio calls saying they are tryin to drag them into my gunsight
CO, Druileáil Teagascóir, and Lámh Cathaoirleach Ginearálta of the Irish Air Force